Abandonware

[Storm]

Yeah, Say was mentioning to me before Christmas that we should make some forum rules.  I haven't gotten around to doing them yet.  Also, no one has really been out of control so there hasn't been a need yet.  We will post some before we get a flood of newbies though.  

Will you ban links to abandonware then? I need to know if should post them all now

[Yonkey]

According to the forum registration page:

You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or you have consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.

So abandonware isn't allowed here.

[copycat]

Isn't "abandonware" is supposed to be software without copyrights or where the author waived the copyrights? I don't mean all those sites who decide by themselves that everything older than 5 years is abandonware...  
I did post a link to The Underdog a while ago, but AFAIK the programs there are REALLY abandonwares  

The definition of abandonware is software of which the rights have been abandoned, i.e. free of copyright. Unfortunately, at many abandonware-sites, there's also illegal software (old games but not abandonware). AFAIK, The Underdog is not one of the latter, because if they receive word a game they offer is not abandonware (yet), they remove the link. So any link to an illegal abandonware left is due to ignorance.
PS: The source of my avatar is copyrighted material too, but it was not I who removed the copyright mark. I just told my associate at that time to do it. If you look closely, you can see her copyright tag in the lower right corner.

[Yonkey]

Abandonware is "any PC or console game that is at least 4 years old and not being sold or supported by the company that produced it or by any other company".  

The reason I don't want links to them posted is because our project is based on abandonware.  Not to mention, we're "supporting" the company in a way by bringing the series back to life.  I don't believe we or our users should promote links to free versions of Sierra or other products as we would no longer be seen as supporting Sierra or the series.  We're already doing this project unofficially and without their consent, the last thing I would want is to make matters worse by encouraging our fans to distribute their software, abandonware or not.  

As for The Underdogs, they admit that abandonware is illegal but excuse it by only hosting programs that were abandoned by their publishers and will remove links to software if an old game starts to sell again.  

Anyway, whether abandonware is legal or not, I don't want people linking to any from our site.

[Storm]

Linking to "The Underdog" is OK then?

Tthe last thing I would want is to make matters worse by encouraging our fans to distribute their software, abandonware or not.  

Yet your site infringes on the copyrights of their "abandonware" as well... and not only in the roundabout way of making a game based on their plot. I already made my case regarding that sooner and was ignored.  
How can you expect your fans to keep the rules you disregard yourselves?

[Yonkey]

Linking to "The Underdog" is OK then?

Sorry, I think the emoticon kinda threw you off.  My final sentence is the stand I'm going to take: Whether abandonware is legal or not, I don't want people linking to any from our site.  

From this point onwards: any posts that link directly and/or indirectly to abandonware or warez sites will be deleted.  You guys are free to talk about old games, but literally linking to them is not permitted.  

How can you expect your fans to keep the rules you disregard yourselves?

There is no simple answer to this question.  It comes down to the definition of a "fan-site", "fan", and what a "fan" should and should not do.  If you look strictly at copyright infringements, then this site and all other fan-sites should cease to exist;  not to mention anything (hardware or software) that is able to reproduce other people's work should be destroyed as well.  Obviously that's never going to happen.  But does this mean we should allow "fans" to start illegally distributing copies of Sierra games through our site, because we can, or because we're a "fan-site"?  

Honestly, I don't care if you guys visit those sites or not, but if so, keep it off these forums.  I just don't want this site used as a way to encourage it.  Our site may infringe on the copyrights of the games because of the kq content on this site, but we do not distribute the games themselves or associate with other sites that do.  

[Storm]

Sorry, I think the emoticon kinda threw you off.

Actually it was the fact you agreed The Underdog aren't doing anything illegal that threw me off  

There is no simple answer to this question.  It comes down to the definition of a "fan-site", "fan", and what a "fan" should and should not do.

No, it doesn't. AFAIK, giving out large chunks of copyrighted games (and I don't mean just screenshots, music or walkthroughs) is forbidden any way you slice it. And as for giving away copyright protection information? come on, Sierra doesn't even agree to do it on their own site  

[Jeysie]

It just sort of boils down to... in order to make this game at all, the KQ9 team needs to infringe on Sierra's copyrights at least somewhat. But there's no point in doing more infringing than necessary.

Right now Sierra seems willing enough to turn their head and ignore fangames based on their series. But if one of the teams involved suddenly started offering links to Sierra games, they probably would not be so lenient. It boils down to... are you giving away enough stuff from a game that the person looking at it would feel no need to buy the game themselves?

I don't see what the big deal is.... abandonware is easy enough to find through simple web searches, and you can always officially say linking to abandonware is not allowed while unofficially e-mailing or non-forum-IMing a person or something to help them out if they're looking for a game. Sometimes it's just all about PR. Why risk Sierra getting cranky with the KQ9 team?

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Storm]

I have no problems with the "no abandonware" policy... I can get pretty much all the abandonware I want elsewhere

I really think this site should err on the side of causion regarding "things that might piss Sierra off".  Maybe I was unclear before - I namely mean the movies from KQ6 & KQ7 they have in the Library section. I protested before against putting them up there since they're spoilers - now I thought of another, better reason why they shouldn't be there  

[Jeysie]

Ahhh. My apologies. I thought you were arguing that since they already had that media up for grabs, then not allowing abandonware links was silly. I didn't realize that you meant that since abandonware links were not allowed, ergo they should remove the other media.

I'd almost be inclined to agree, except that I know that some of the Sierra game video stuff is available at the latest incarnation of Sierragames. Of course, that is now the Williams' "official" old Sierra site, so maybe they're specially entitled.

I do at least agree that having the KQ7 ending movies up there is a bad idea, but intros aren't necessarily a bad thing. Heck, some companies even have released demos for games that were nothing more than the game's intro sequence.

Personally, if anyone was going to release anything, I'd have it be the behind-the-scenes info bits from the KQ Collection. There's a lot of good stuff in there, especially concept sketches from the games, and part of the KQ6 design documents, but now there's no way to look at the stuff unless you snag a copy of the KQ Collection on eBay. (Or get it in a trade, as I did.) How I long for when Sierragamers was an actual info archive as opposed to a glorified message board...

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Storm]

I'd almost be inclined to agree, except that I know that some of the Sierra game video stuff is available at the latest incarnation of Sierragames. Of course, that is now the Williams' "official" old Sierra site, so maybe they're specially entitled.

What "incarnation of Sierragames" are you referring to?
If you mean Ken Williams' "Sierragamers" site, then yes, I know they give out that stuff there. However, Ken himself said he doesn't know what Sierra's position on that matter is - I think he takes the "if they protest we'll take it out" approach  
Now, that might be OK for him, but a site like KQ9 has more to loose, since Sierra can potentially shut down the whole thing - why risk it for a couple of flics?  

[Yonkey]

However, Ken himself said he doesn't know what Sierra's position on that matter is - I think he takes the "if they protest we'll take it out" approach  

That's the same approach we have too.  In fact, as is with AGDI and probably every other fan group out there.  Since there hasn't been any problems with Sierra yet, we haven't had to.

Now, that might be OK for him, but a site like KQ9 has more to loose, since Sierra can potentially shut down the whole thing - why risk it for a couple of flics?  

He's actually risking lawsuit just as much as we are.  He doesn't own the rights to the KQ trademark anymore than we do.  But, he's not hosting the games from his site and probably has the same policy if someone links to it.  

As for the videos, commercially speaking, we aren't marketing the games or videos.  They are not a part of kq9.  They are just here as fan-related material.  Sierra could still potentially shut down us whether the videos remained or not.  

[Yonkey]

Yonkey -
You don't have to argue with me about EVERYTHING, you know  

I was just answering the questions you were asking. Besides, you didn't want me ignoring you again, did ya?  

You could just say something like "The team has considered this matter extensively and decided the benefit of having the movies on our site outweights any risks that may ensue, and so we'll be leaving them movies up".

Alright, the team has....   lol, well that's what I was trying to get at from the start.  This whole game is being made under the premise that the benefits outweighs the risks.  But as far as abandonware goes, that's one risk I'm not willing to take.

It's your site and I won't argue about what you decide to put in it - I was just pointing out the matter.

Ok.  Case closed.  

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