Author Topic: Progress???  (Read 52747 times)

Offline EDI

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #220 on: January 24, 2005, 07:54:45 PM »
That journal entry is a year old (to the day), and I saw those screen shots a while ago. That is the most recent progress update? I've gotta say I'm really dissapointed with the lack of a section that lists where things are, at least in a general sense. I know how game development teams work (since I run one myself), and I am very suprised that you arn't giving some indication as to where things are, especialy given that this project has been going on for a long time. I just dont understand why it isnt public knowledge, or at least availible on request.
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Offline koko_99_2001

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #221 on: January 24, 2005, 08:00:26 PM »
Question...does AGDI give progress reports like that?  I'm on their forum quite often, and they tell us it's moving along, but not the exact point the game development is at.

And the Journal entry LN pointed you toward was made on November 10, 2004, a long cry from being "a year old (to the day)."

There is a lot more I could say right now, but I don't think it would go over well if either of us start attacking the game development of either the KQ9 team or yours.
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Re:Progress???
« Reply #222 on: January 24, 2005, 08:01:48 PM »
There is one, indeed, and I will not fall into these attempts, I only must answer to one boss which is Cesar Bittar, certainly I won't take these comments from any random forum users, other than that whoever else may be entirely free to either gather up any ideas they want and continue speculating or simply just keep their comments to themselves.

What is out there is what we wanna share so far, it is just the way it is, you feel free to asume, think whatever suits you best. If you think it's in "vain" then so be it, I'm done trying to explain what it's been already explained, or to simply please whoever who comes here asking for things just for the sake of it.

You may run your project as you wish, and if you expect to be respected as a must you shall do the same to others, I do not go into your website telling you exactly how you should do things, comments are welcome but be careful on how you put things across hence you're not an old time fan to come around here and start either asuming things or demanding them. I have not done such thing in your forum and certainly I wouldn't address something so delicate in such a careless way if I had any respect or sense of true support.

And in the words of our good friend Dew "Have a nice day" alright, I've said all I wanted about this matter already.



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Offline Jafar

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #223 on: January 24, 2005, 08:09:10 PM »
Question...does AGDI give progress reports like that?  I'm on their forum quite often, and they tell us it's moving along, but not the exact point the game development is at.

They give progress reports at their main site.
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Offline koko_99_2001

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #224 on: January 24, 2005, 08:14:40 PM »
Question...does AGDI give progress reports like that?  I'm on their forum quite often, and they tell us it's moving along, but not the exact point the game development is at.

They give progress reports at their main site.

Thanks Jafar!  Appreciate clearing that up.  I'd rather my mistakes be pointed out than for me to give false information :)
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Offline EDI

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #225 on: January 24, 2005, 08:19:46 PM »
You're right, though I wouldn't exactly consider me to be a "random forum user",
whenver this project posts on gamedev.net I am there to encourage people to join, and not flame it, like ususaly happens, unfortunetly.

to prove i am not lying...

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/viewreply.asp?ID=1877575


Given that I am also an adventure game developer, going through probably very similar trials as you are, I thought perhaps we shared some level of understanding. You seem to treat me as if i, like alot of people, don't know what goes into making a game. Anyhow, out of all the indie development teams I have spoken with, (or there representitives), this one has proven to be less than informative.

And with that, I'll trouble your forum no more. good luck on the game.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 08:23:30 PM by EDI »
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Offline Yonkey

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #226 on: January 24, 2005, 09:14:21 PM »
The Journal is the best place to find updates and details on the team's progress.  We usually update it after major milestones or design phases have been completed.  Team progress itself is made almost daily by members of the team and is difficult to categorize in terms of % of game completeness.  The reason it is difficult is because once one process is completed by someone, another one starts, and if the previous phase is not completed, it is reworked until it is approved to move forward.  In other words, there isn't a black or white during production until it is approved by the directive staff.  Through this method, we achieve the highest quality in every aspect of the game.
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Offline EDI

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #227 on: January 24, 2005, 09:27:07 PM »
I told myself I wasn't going to reply, but as a manager myself I think I should comment.

This is just my oppinion take it for what it is worth.

When making a game, before you set out to make that game, you should have a plan, ususaly broken down into granular blocks, these blocks are then fed in the proper order to the people who are to do them. So if indeed you have everything thought out and on paper for the game, which you should, otherwise you are flying blind(which we did for a while and it was a bad decision due to the disorganization inherant in it), then you should know how many of those tasks are complete. Right?  If it's more up-in-the-air than that, then I would be worried that things havent been properly solidified. As for things being black and white, when a task is not done or when a task is done, is definetly a black and white discreet state.

On the whole though, thank you for posting a more explained version of how things work, it gives me more of an idea of how things might be going.

Don't take my above words as being angry baseless inconstructive critisim, I have some experience in this area, given that my actual occupation is a game developer, and I do indie game development as well.  Again, good luck on the project :-)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 09:33:57 PM by EDI »
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Offline Jeysie

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #228 on: January 24, 2005, 10:07:05 PM »
I haven't gotten my dose of being yelled at in a while, so I'll go for it.

I have to say that I think it's a little unfair to get so uptight about people asking how the game is going. I mean, if they care enough about the game to want to know when it's done, that's a good thing, right?

Yes, some of the people who have asked in the past have been rude about it. But there's nothing wrong with the curiousity in and of itself.

I know that there's a lot of work that's already done and is being done, but that's only because I've gotten to work on some things with Mike and Cesar and because I practically lived here for quite a while. A casual visitor isn't going to have the benefit of any of that, obviously, so they're curious.

And there's nothing wrong with that. This is a whole community, of which only about 20% is game-related. Someone who likes the idea of the game and is curious about it but doesn't currently wish to join a new community might find looking through all the posts in search of updates a bit daunting.

It is true that you make updates whenever a major event happens, but major events by their nature have long periods of time in between them. In between those, even if all you say is "This week we got a couple backgrounds done and an actor's parts recorded" or something, it'll keep people happy because they know for sure things are still going well. Nobody's asking for a huge, detailed, trade-secrets dissertation. (At least, not seriously, anyway. ;) ) That's what AGDI's Designer Journals seem to be like, and they work rather well to me.

Most of us don't know what it's like to make a computer game, yes. So tell us! I for one find the whole matter rather fascinating from talking to people on other projects, and would love to hear whatever tidbits can be shared.

It's a *good* thing that people want to know how things are going. If they didn't, it would mean they didn't care. And if the fans do care about something, it seems rather unfair to get uptight about them caring about it, especially since to me the presence of a forum indicates that fan feedback is desired.

Peace & Luv, Liz
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 10:10:12 PM by Jeysie »

Offline FataliOmega

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #229 on: January 25, 2005, 07:48:49 AM »
I guess everyones just tired of being doubted. I can understand that interested adventure gamers might want to know whether this is just one more "flop" 3rd party game... but considering the trials the KQ9 team is going through, we can atleast have a little faith. In many ways, the fans are the only form of compensation any of them get. And here we are, super eager to debunk everything.

Ive made the mistake before of assuming that project developers have the intelligence of a 2nd grader and all projects are in "vain"... I was wrong. And even my basest doubts, no matter how logical they were, hurt those involved. I dont want ya'll making my mistakes.

Lets all take a moment to look at the very telling, evidence.

1) KQ9 has a large, very active forum. Everyday were posting

2) Production updates occur every month or so. For a 3rd party game of any sort, that aint bad.

3) Check out the list of KQ9 "employees." Typically, the larger the staff, the better the chances the game will actually be finished. The more people, the more motivation. We have a rather large staff.

Shouldnt the above merit atleast a little patience?

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Offline Cez

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #230 on: January 25, 2005, 07:58:20 AM »
Ok,

First, the journal entry is not a year old. It's from November, that makes it... 2 months old? almost 3 at max?

Anyway, I do not intend to be rude and because I lead the production of the game, I can answer to the questions posed by EDI.

In the Journal entry of november, I stated that by the end of the month we'd be done with backgrounds and then by december/early january, we'd be done with characters. Comes end of January, we've met our deadlines.

I also stated that January would see animation in full force. That's exactly what's happening now, along with unwrapping all of the models, that our Art Directors are going through, one by one, and finalizing them, ready to be unwrapped.

At the same time, in the texturing fort, things keep moving as expected. Same with the music development and voice recording.

Plans for the website are in the works, so a massive update is coming, but I currently don't have a date for it. All material needed for it is being finalized, so, the day that is up, you will see it up.

Finally, on the programming fort, we've dealt and resolved some of the problems that were stopping us from advancing the demo. So, yes, to answer the question, we are putting the game together now.

We do have a release date. We are trying our damnest hard to meet it. You'll know what the date is when we see it appropiate.

I believe that sums it up. Now, I'll go back to work. Thanks for your patience.

Sincerely,


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Offline Jeysie

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #231 on: January 25, 2005, 08:13:29 AM »
It's definitely a two-sided thing, Fatali.

Having people be so curious about what progress has been made probably does get annoying. On the other hand, we gamers have been burned many, many times by projects that seem to be going well but then disbanded. Unfortunately, while team size, active community, and frequent updates do suggest that a team is more likely to finish their product, I know from experience that it is by no means a guarantee.

Surely there must be a compromise. Assumption of intelligence works both ways, as well. Some of the explanations here and on other matters do and have felt to me personally to have boiled down to the condescending flavor of "Because we say that's how things work, and you're not on the team so you can never understand why/know what we're going through, so we don't want to hear it". As I was telling a friend in an IM discussion on another topic the other day, people tend to find the "because I said so" dismissal very unsatisfying. (I know I do. :P )

Please note that I am not saying that I personally don't think the project won't be finished; from what I've seen I know it very likely will be finished. I'm simply saying that for the Average Joe/Jane who doesn't have any privvy knowledge it's understandable why they're so curious about things. For me, at least, one of the appeals of a fangame team having a public forum is the possibility of getting first-hand accounts of what it's like to make a game.

We who have been here for a long time and gotten to know the community well do have faith. But someone who hasn't been here for a long time is going to initially consider this as "Just Another Fangame Team", because to them it is. And let's face it, the vast majority of the eventual audience for this game isn't going to be the few dozen KQ9 Groupies, it's going to be the hundreds (thousands?) of Average Joes/Janes.

Peace & Luv, Liz
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 08:14:02 AM by Jeysie »

Offline Cez

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #232 on: January 25, 2005, 08:14:37 AM »
Also,

in response to Jeysie's comment about us commenting "this week, we did this and that", I'm sorry, but I hope you really don't expect me to do that. There are certain ways of doing things in both the marketting and production fields. We know what we are doing. I'll come and do a report every once in a while, but I'm not going to make daily/weekly/even monthly reports as a rule. I simply don't have the time for once, and other than that, no production company updates as much as we do. Try to get any further information from The Longest Journey 2 and be lucky if you get any. And they are a commercial company with paid full-time employees.

The reason why it upset us is because we keep giving you guys a lot and you never seem to be satisfied. So, we have to draw the line between what you've earned for supporting us and what you demand we give you. Again, take a look at any big company out there. Any huge game. I've been waiting for news from Final Fantasy XII and Kingdom Hearts 2 for months now, and I would not even get a reply or reasons if I emailed someone at Square asking for information.

We'll update every time we feel it necessary. The fact that I'm here answering to these emails is basically time I'm taking from all the ridicolous amount of work I have to do, to come here and write these posts because Say pointed it out to me (which she always keeps me updated of any really important thing going on in the forum, as I don't have the time to revise them).

So, hang in there. We are planning things for you guys. Just don't tell us how to do our job, we already have A LOT planned and A LOT to do and very little time. We've done pretty well so far, no?

Thanks,


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Offline FataliOmega

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #233 on: January 25, 2005, 08:26:19 AM »
Quote
Any huge game. I've been waiting for news from Final Fantasy XII and Kingdom Hearts 2 for months now, and I would not even get a reply or reasons if I emailed someone at Square asking for information.

With that said, Square has the worst PR department Ive ever seen. Then again, I dont live in Japan.

To Jeysie: I understand its a two sided thing. But despite being burnt many times, the least we can do is try to support the genre we all love instead of looking careful at ways to tear it down. Lets face it, people, the adventure game community is one of the major reasons there are no adventure game companies out there. We demand more at all times. We want better graphics. We want more story. We want more puzzles. We want longer stories. We want longer, more creative puzzles. And shame shame to any adventure series that is forced to reduce their quality because of the price. How many of us were disappointed by the graphics of the 4th Monkey Island? Maybe there wouldve been a 5th if we had supported it more.

Lets say, purely hypothetical, of course, that KQ9 would never see the light of day. Fine, good, one less adventure game. But other people, and other potential developers, see how weve treated the KQ9 team. If we had given them respect, excitement instead of doom and gloom, maybe some other company wouldve been motivated to design something. We've GOT to try to give people reasons for developing new adventure games. Being logical skeptics is not going to cut it. Its hard for me, and i know its hard for you. We both want verifiable answers. But sometimes to win the war, you must lose the battle.

With that said, Im late to my next class... Be back soon.

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Offline Jeysie

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #234 on: January 25, 2005, 08:34:20 AM »
Cesar: You can do whatever you wish, obviously. But no, I don't consider it an unreasonable thought. There are other fangames who do give regular updates of exactly that sort, and some of them don't even have a dedicated web team like this one does. No one said you or anyone on the production team personally had to come in and give a speech, we expect the web team to do most of that.

A commercial company isn't exactly a precise analogy. We don't usually expect a commercial company to get down into the trenches with us. The idea of a fangame team of "normal people" tends to suggest the idea of a little more intimacy.

I'm just trying to point out that it's normal for the average fan to feel this way and ask these sorts of questions. You may not like it, but it happens. Trying to change human nature is usually a futile prospect.

At any rate, I can see that this attempt at playing Devil's Advocate will be as futile as all the rest, so I'll bow out. It's not me who's majorly affected by PR perceptions.

Peace & Luv, Liz
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 08:36:55 AM by Jeysie »

Offline EDI

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #235 on: January 25, 2005, 08:36:49 AM »
First, the journal entry is not a year old. It's from November, that makes it... 2 months old? almost 3 at max?

I was pointed to journal entry #16 by LN, and did not notice the numbering system, i counted down from the top instead of up from the bottom, sorry about that, my mistake.

That post does make things somewhat more clear, as is mirrored in what you just posted here. The journal is a daunting collection of text, wouldnt it be easier for new comers to see the last big progress report from you on the main-page? I think it would clear up people, like myself, from tyring to scrouonge information on where things are, and obviously angering people.

I think weekly or even monthly updates are definetly too much strain for a team of this size (managing five people is a full time job in and of itself). All I am asking for is a more prominent place to list these big (hopfully quaterly?) updates, that pertain only to where the game production is and what has been acomplished, in short, just the facts =).

As for weekly or monthly updates, I think that is a little much, I would be happy with quaterly, but that's me.


Anyhow, thank you César, for taking the time to explain where things are in the development cycle, I will keep fighting the good fight for this project whenever you are looking for help on GameDev.net

Good Luck.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 08:43:50 AM by EDI »
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Offline Cez

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #236 on: January 25, 2005, 09:00:14 AM »
Cesar: You can do whatever you wish, obviously. But no, I don't consider it an unreasonable thought. There are other fangames who do give regular updates of exactly that sort, and some of them don't even have a dedicated web team like this one does. No one said you or anyone on the production team personally had to come in and give a speech, we expect the web team to do most of that.

We work differently to other fangame projects. We've earned the respect to be listed in all big media computer games sites on the net as an official game that is going to be released and we've earned it because of the way we do things. Take a close look at this site. I don't intend to denigrate other fan sites, but take a look at every one of the features we have. It's huge, isn't it? We actually give you weekly updates in the form of art, soundclips, etc. We've stopped FOR A REASON. A good one. We don't consider ourselves yet another fangame team, and we have several reasons for it. We are aiming for proffesionalism, the best we can give.

Finally, the web team doesn't necessarily know what's going on in the production area of the game. Say has enough on her plate to be asking me everyday what's going on with the overall production, the same reason I don't know what goes on in the forums.

Please, stop demanding. We've given you lots, and we plan on giving you even more. Go take a look at the Art of the Week gallery if you think we don't give updates, listen to the recent soundclips again. We've given MORE than ANY other fangame/commercial company out there and I had to make a call on stopping it before we gave too much away. But we haven't stopped it, we're reworking it and that's part of the huge update that's coming.

I won't say it again. We do things for a reason. When the major update comes, you will see what I'm talking about.

Thanks,
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 09:02:56 AM by CĂ©sar_Bittar »


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Offline Jeysie

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #237 on: January 25, 2005, 09:24:21 AM »
(shrug)

As I said, I'm not the one asking the questions. It's not me that you have to convince. I'm not concerned how frequently things are updated. Just trying to offer a guess at the thought process of people who are.

Now that you've come out and stated bluntly and clearly that the current info releases were temporary things, and that some of the info we're curious about is likely to be addressed in the upcoming update, I'd guess that people will probably be more satisfied.

Peace & Luv, Liz

Offline amarinda

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #238 on: January 25, 2005, 12:28:41 PM »
Really interesting discussion, this. :)  My take is: a team is working to give me and those like me something wonderful and wonderfully free. OK, maybe they're doing it for themselves, too, that's healthy, but either way I feel that I should be grateful.

If they ask for "fan" feedback and/or keep the lines of communication open, that's great. If someone mentions they would like more updates, and I personally WOULD probably expect frequent ones from a project like this (in which a fan-team is excited enough about what they're doing to... um, DO what they're doing) or assume there's nothing good to report, fine. If the team responds, "Thanks for your interest but we know what we're doing and we're doing it for a reason, please don't keep pushing, just trust us," well then that's a wonderful response!

Yeah, it's be nice, like Jeysie says, to have a real inside look at what's going on along the way so that we feel, I dunno, INVOLVED in the process even if we're not (everyone has their delusions :P), but it's true that if you're running this as professionally as possible, you know what you're doing better than the average Jane (in my case) and I respect that; also if you're focusing on the project it probably simplifies things not to have to take the general public through it step by step, but rather make bigger announcements every once in awhile to report on the big picture, y'know, with a bit of perspective behind it. Maybe post-production you can share your experience? And every little decision, or adjustment, won't be made a big deal of by people (like myself) who really have no clue or would be constantly second-guessing everything that's being done.

In any case, even though we're benefitting from it and of course we're really curious, and although fan support is very important to any project like this... they're doing the work, it's their project and I plan to appreciate WHATEVER the outcome is. Obviously a lot of love and time is going into it, I trust it'll be done very well.

That's my true (unasked for) opinion, but since it's sounds a bit like sucking up to me, I've sent a load of dung to the project's (virtual?) headquarters to dispel that ridiculous idea.  ;D
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Offline Jeysie

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Re:Progress???
« Reply #239 on: January 25, 2005, 12:59:40 PM »
I suppose maybe it could just be said that due to unforeseen circumstances the previously regularly scheduled updates can no longer be sustained, and the team will keep us updated whenever it is possible? (Well, I mean, I know this is obviously the case...)

Peace & Luv, Liz
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 01:01:43 PM by Jeysie »
 

anything