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The Silver Lining - Cease and Desist

Started by Yonkey, February 27, 2010, 08:59:56 PM

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Enchantermon

This is incredibly exciting! From the moment I read about the announcement, my mind began racing with all of the thing's you'd be able to do if you owned the license. The name could be changed, you could finally seek compensation, the rest of the chapters could see the light of day...this is awesome. I'm definitely afraid of the figures you'll be quoted, but if this can be done, it would certainly be an amazing event, not to mention unprecedented!
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Dan

6 figures, I think maybe even 7 figures if Activision thinks that the King's Quest IP has value and now if they would only respond to someone

::)

Petra Rocks

If funds to purchase the IP from Activision through donations are insufficient, it might be possible to raise them by continuing with the other games POS was planning to sell and then buying the KQ IP with some of the proceeds. Obviously this would take a good long time might not work, and it would be up to whomever ultimately owns POS (I assume there are no plans to issue public stock anytime soon). It would depend on lot on the two unknown variable of how much the IP cost and how much POS makes, but it is a plan that might be faster than remaking the game if any other projects are cloe to fruition.

oberonqa

It would also be possible to pitch the idea to venture capitalists, especially if a donation program had secured a respectable amount.  Any venture capitalist worth their salt would at least be open to the idea of funding POS if capital was already there in the form of donations from supporters (which would be viewable as market viability).
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Tage7

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa... whoa.

Guys, this is not my Batman glass. ::)

In all seriousness, buying the IP would be a dream come true, but it most certainly will cost more than any of us makes in a single year--possibly more than all of us make in a single year combined.

Right now, I see getting Activision to reverse their decision MUCH more plausible. Keep up the momentum guys.

Erpy

QuoteWe've actually offered to meet them in-person from day one, but they needed the project to pass through the legal department first.

Wait, what exactly did you offer them on day one? Was your initial contact a simple request for a submit-review-and-go or was there some sort of sales pitch included from the start?

There's a lot of mixed comments here...are we talking about the purchase of a commercial license (which authorizes someone to do one game with the IP) or the purchase of the IP itself. (which allows the new owner to do whatever the hell he wants with it until he sells it again)

I take it that if people go through with buying a commercial license, the game itself will be sold instead of being a free download. Are there any guidelines in place that make certain each of the (many) team members is fairly compensated if that happens? In a non-profit project, it doesn't matter who does what, since everybody gets paid the same, but if it suddenly goes commercial you have to remember exact level of contribution for each individual member. That's quite a task to do after-the-fact. (and what would happen if an individual member would not care to sign over ownership of his contributions for commercial use unless he's paid an x amount?) Can of worms anyone?


RollingStone

Ken and Roberta have a heck of a lot of money... ;)

oberonqa

You bring up some good points Erpy.  If the team was to go that route, I think the best way to avoid the can of worms would probably be to release the first episode of TSL as freeware and then make the remaining episodes of TSL as commercial products. 

And to clarify, the discussion is about buying the King's Quest IP and not a commercial license.
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Erpy

#588
There's also the fact some people don't like their contributions to be used for commercial purpose on principle. Josh Mandel stated when SQ7 shut itself down, his contributions were on the condition the game itself would be freeware. We found that while we were collecting signatures for the validation of AGDI's license, some voice actors were put off by the mere possibility of their work being sold at some point and it sometimes took some convincing. This may seem strange, but keep in mind that a lot of people join fan-development communities out of pure idealism, rather than ambition for commercial ventures and want fangames to remain fangames.

But if the first game would be free, how are you going to get the money to buy a commercial license to begin with.

QuoteAnd to clarify, the discussion is about buying the King's Quest IP and not a commercial license.

Is it? I got the opposite impression. Keep in mind that buying a franchise itself adds one or two additional digits to an already high sum of money, since you're not merely paying for the ability to produce stuff with that IP, but you're also paying for the ownership and distribution rights on existing IP. (the 8 other KQ games + any remakes of them) And the original stuff IS being commercially distributed as we speak, so that factors in too.

Also, keep in mind that it's very unlikely that a company is willing to sell the individual franchises that were created by Sierra, since part of their value is the collective "Quest"-thing...in other words, they'll probably tell you that if you want the KQ IP, you'll have to take the SQ IP, the QFG IP, the PQ IP, the LSL IP, the GK IP, the LB IP, the Conquests IP and the various misc games along with it...and you'll be paying for those too.


oberonqa

Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 11:15:24 AM
Also, keep in mind that it's very unlikely that a company is willing to sell the individual franchises that were created by Sierra, since part of their value is the collective "Quest"-thing...in other words, they'll probably tell you that if you want the KQ IP, you'll have to take the SQ IP, the QFG IP, the PQ IP, the LSL IP, the GK IP, the LB IP, the Conquests IP and the various misc games along with it...and you'll be paying for those too.

That's not necessarily a bad thing.  Yes it's going to add some zero's to the table... but I don't see anything wrong with POS purchasing the entire Sierra IP.  For the first time since the Cendant days, the Sierra IP could be in the hands of a company that is committed to the IP and the community.

So like I said, purchasing the entire IP isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion.  Far from it... it's actually a good thing.
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Delling

Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 11:15:24 AM
But if the first game would be free, how are you going to get the money to buy a commercial license to begin with.

Well, they couldn't very well sell the first game to get the money to buy a commercial license or the IP... seeing as selling the first game would imply having one of those in the first place. ;P

I had thought that making the first installment free or having TSL be free anyway would be a good option for saying thank you if there's considerable fan support towards the purchase of the IP.
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
Don't touch me! I don't know where you've been!

Marquess of Pembroke
Duke of Saxony in Her Majesty's Court
Knight of the Swan for Her Imperial Highness

...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

"Let the locative live."

http://my.ddo.com/referral/Delling87

Erpy

#591
QuoteWell, they couldn't very well sell the first game to get the money to buy a commercial license or the IP... seeing as selling the first game would imply having one of those in the first place.

Um...I was more thinking along the path of getting a third party funder to cough up the money for a commercial license and then pay said funder back with the profits from the first game. If the first chapter generated enough profits, said funder might then be inclined to fund the production of a second chapter. That'd be the most realistic option, really.

QuoteI had thought that making the first installment free or having TSL be free anyway would be a good option for saying thank you if there's considerable fan support towards the purchase of the IP.

So what you're basically saying is that it'd be a nice gesture to make all potential chapters downloadable free of charge as a "thank you" for the fan support that supposedly made the purchase of a commercial license possible, but you're still not saying where the money for said purpose came from.

QuoteThat's not necessarily a bad thing.  Yes it's going to add some zero's to the table... but I don't see anything wrong with POS purchasing the entire Sierra IP.  For the first time since the Cendant days, the Sierra IP could be in the hands of a company that is committed to the IP and the community.

So like I said, purchasing the entire IP isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion.  Far from it... it's actually a good thing.

You're right. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Gold coins spontaneously coming out of Cesar's ass wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing either. (well, not bad for him at least) My point wasn't so much as whether it'd be a good thing or a bad thing. My point was whether it'd be a realistic thing.

If someone among the POS bigwigs had a sugar daddy with so much money the mere possession of it was making him physically ill and he was desperate to get rid of it, I'm guessing they already would have bought a commercial license to begin with and not bother with the risky road they've been treading. So my hunch is they have some contacts in the electronic entertainment industry who might be willing to supply a limited sum for the production of a commercial KQ game. Imagine this:

POS: So we've learned that a commercial license for the first part of TSL costs xxxxxxx dollar.
3rd party funder: Yeah, we've spoken about that already. I'll consider it.
POS: However, there's also the option of forgetting about licensing and just purchase all Sierra IP. It'll be ours to use as we please forever and it'll only cost us 100 times as much.
3rd party funder: And why would I pay 100 times as much for something that has the same short term results?
POS: It'd be nice to have all Sierra IP.
3rd party funder: Nice, you said?
POS: Yes, it'd be a good thing. It'd be nice.
3rd party funder: Well, that's won the argument. Where do I sign?

Sure, that'll happen.


oberonqa

Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:20:30 PM
You're right. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Gold coins spontaneously coming out of Cesar's ass wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing either. (well, not bad for him at least) My point wasn't so much as whether it'd be a good thing or a bad thing. My point was whether it'd be a realistic thing.

If someone among the POS bigwigs had a sugar daddy with so much money the mere possession of it was making him physically ill and he was desperate to get rid of it, I'm guessing they already would have bought a commercial license to begin with and not bother with the risky road they've been treading. So my hunch is they have some contacts in the electronic entertainment industry who might be willing to supply a limited sum for the production of a commercial KQ game. Imagine this:

POS: So we've learned that a commercial license for the first part of TSL costs xxxxxxx dollar.
3rd party funder: Yeah, we've spoken about that already. I'll consider it.
POS: However, there's also the option of forgetting about licensing and just purchase all Sierra IP. It'll be ours to use as we please forever and it'll only cost us 100 times as much.
3rd party funder: And why would I pay 100 times as much for something that has the same short term results?
POS: It'd be nice to have all Sierra IP.
3rd party funder: Nice, you said?
POS: Yes, it'd be a good thing. It'd be nice.
3rd party funder: Well, that's won the argument. Where do I sign?

Sure, that'll happen.

Well look at it this way.  POS owning the Sierra IP means they can sell the Sierra games.  Those games over on GOG would generate royalties that would go into POS's pockets.  They would also be able to repackage and sell the Sierra games as they saw fit... doing what Vivendi should have done a couple years ago instead of doing a quick and dirty box for each of the 'Quest series.

As part of the purchase, POS would also probably obtain the actual production-related materials to each of the games that makes up the IP.  Source code, art assets, design documents, etc.  That would be quite usable now and in the future.

So it wouldn't just be a matter of "lets own the Sierra IP because it'd be nice".  It would be nice... but there is more to life than sugar and rainbows and there are definite business advantages to owning the Sierra IP that far exceeds the "let's buy the Sierra IP just so we can put out TSL".  If that was all POS was going to do with the IP, then you'd be 100% correct.  But I have great confidence that the people at POS are not stupid.  Nor are they ignorant.  And it would take someone who is stupid AND ignorant to not see the potential business applications behind such a purchase.
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Erpy

#593
Quote from: oberonqa on March 28, 2010, 01:30:13 PM
Well look at it this way.  POS owning the Sierra IP means they can sell the Sierra games.  Those games over on GOG would generate royalties that would go into POS's pockets.  They would also be able to repackage and sell the Sierra games as they saw fit... doing what Vivendi should have done a couple years ago instead of doing a quick and dirty box for each of the 'Quest series.

As part of the purchase, POS would also probably obtain the actual production-related materials to each of the games that makes up the IP.  Source code, art assets, design documents, etc.  That would be quite usable now and in the future.

So it wouldn't just be a matter of "lets own the Sierra IP because it'd be nice".  It would be nice... but there is more to life than sugar and rainbows and there are definite business advantages to owning the Sierra IP that far exceeds the "let's buy the Sierra IP just so we can put out TSL".  If that was all POS was going to do with the IP, then you'd be 100% correct.  But I have great confidence that the people at POS are not stupid.  Nor are they ignorant.  And it would take someone who is stupid AND ignorant to not see the potential business applications behind such a purchase.

So why does Telltale, a company partially consisting of former Lucasarts employees, not own the Monkey Island franchise? It's still Lucasarts owning the IP, Telltale (I believe) merely operates under a commercial license to use the Monkey Island IP for commercial purposes. They could have made LA an offer they couldn't refuse...the question is what's the most financially viable solution. I don't think Telltale is stupid or ignorant.

When Yosemite was closed down, most source code and design documents ended up in the trash. The design docs for the QFG series aren't in a vault at Activision right now...they're in Lori Cole's closet. (trust me, I've been there) If the old Sierra classics could easily and cheaply be ported to Windows XP/Vista/7, Vivendi would have done that already back when they rereleased their collections. I've heard they tried to get a 3rd party developer to reverse-engineer the games, but ultimately that failed, so they bundled the games with Dosbox instead.

Purchasing "Sierra" would literally cost many millions. What funding party in the right mind would cough up that sum up front for merely the potential of repackaging and maybe slightly retooling of old Dos games? Those things would be pocket change and not nearly enough to cover the costs of such a massive investment. I don't think you'll find someone willing to fund that kind of thing. Not when, for POS' purposes, a single commercial license would serve the same purpose.

I don't consider myself ignorant or stupid, but I do fail to see the potential business applications of such a large investment to be sufficient to get even close to a break even point.


Delling

#594
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:20:30 PM
QuoteWell, they couldn't very well sell the first game to get the money to buy a commercial license or the IP... seeing as selling the first game would imply having one of those in the first place.

Um...I was more thinking along the path of getting a third party funder to cough up the money for a commercial license and then pay said funder back with the profits from the first game. If the first chapter generated enough profits, said funder might then be inclined to fund the production of a second chapter. That'd be the most realistic option, really.
Um... you didn't say that. ::)

Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:20:30 PM
QuoteI had thought that making the first installment free or having TSL be free anyway would be a good option for saying thank you if there's considerable fan support towards the purchase of the IP.

So what you're basically saying is that it'd be a nice gesture to make all potential chapters downloadable free of charge as a "thank you" for the fan support that supposedly made the purchase of a commercial license possible, but you're still not saying where the money for said purpose came from.
By "first installment", I meant first chapter. As for where that money would come from, by "fan support" I was referring to posts from fans that have suggested their willingness to donate their own money to the cause. (Though I will admit that the statements as written were ambiguous.)

So what I'm basically saying is that if fan support in the form of monetary donations helped make it possible for POS to buy the Sierra IP, they might consider releasing chapter 1 or the whole of TSL for free.

EDIT: XD XD (sorry this was too good to pass up)

Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:46:27 PM
The design docs for the QFG series aren't in a vault at Activision right now...they're in Lori Cole's closet. (trust me, I've been there)
Uhm... may I ask what you were doing in Lori Cole's closet? XD
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
Don't touch me! I don't know where you've been!

Marquess of Pembroke
Duke of Saxony in Her Majesty's Court
Knight of the Swan for Her Imperial Highness

...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

"Let the locative live."

http://my.ddo.com/referral/Delling87

oberonqa

#595
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 01:46:27 PM
So why does Telltale, a company partially consisting of former Lucasarts employees, not own the Monkey Island franchise? It's still Lucasarts owning the IP, Telltale (I believe) merely operates under a commercial license to use the Monkey Island IP for commercial purposes. They could have made LA an offer they couldn't refuse...the question is what's the most financially viable solution. I don't think Telltale is stupid or ignorant.

Perhaps LucasArts was willing to play ball with Telltale?  Thus far Activision doesn't want to play ball... which means no talks of commercial licences or any kind of license whatsoever.  Activision has zero interest in TSL, as you'll recall from the post C&D interviews.  They also have zero interest in their IP library, as you'll recall from Kotick's keynote address.

Quote
When Yosemite was closed down, most source code and design documents ended up in the trash. The design docs for the QFG series aren't in a vault at Activision right now...they're in Lori Cole's closet. (trust me, I've been there) If the old Sierra classics could easily and cheaply be ported to Windows XP/Vista/7, Vivendi would have done that already back when they rereleased their collections. I've heard they tried to get a 3rd party developer to reverse-engineer the games, but ultimately that failed, so they bundled the games with Dosbox instead.

Note I said SHOULD be a part of the purchase.  I didn't say WOULD be part of the purchase because things like stuff being trashed happened all the time back then.

Quote
Purchasing "Sierra" would literally cost many millions. What funding party in the right mind would cough up that sum up front for merely the potential of repackaging and maybe slightly retooling of old Dos games? Those things would be pocket change and not nearly enough to cover the costs of such a massive investment. I don't think you'll find someone willing to fund that kind of thing. Not when, for POS' purposes, a single commercial license would serve the same purpose.

If Activision was interested in selling a commercial license to POS, that would be great.  It's certainly something I'm sure POS has mentioned to them...

Quote
I don't consider myself ignorant or stupid, but I do fail to see the potential business applications of such a large investment to be sufficient to get even close to a break even point.

I'm beginning to notice a disturbing trend here.  We always end up arguing back and forth... and I don't want to argue possibilities.  We've argued semantics and law.... ideas and philosophy.  You name it, we've argued it.  

I'm done arguing with you Erpy.  From this point forward you can tear apart what I say as much as you like.  I'm not going to respond to it.  Even when I say you make good points, you still insist on arguing with me.  That stops now.  I will not continue to argue with someone who, for all intents and purposes, seems to delight in getting the last word and arguing for arguing's sake.  I could say to you "Hey Erpy, I like your signature!" and you would probably argue with me about why I like your signature.  

Enough is enough.
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Erpy

#596
QuoteSo what I'm basically saying is that if fan support in the form of monetary donations helped make it possible for POS to buy the Sierra IP, they might consider releasing chapter 1 or the whole of TSL for free.

Except they won't end up buying the Sierra IP.

QuoteUhm... may I ask what you were doing in Lori Cole's closet?

LOL, sorry, you're right. That sentence was EXTREMELY poorly worded. What I meant to say was AGD1, AGD2 and I visited Lori Cole at her place some years back and got to read the design docs for a bit. Aziza's minigame in QFG2VGA is directly based on material from those documents.

QuoteNote I said SHOULD be a part of the purchase.  I didn't say WOULD be part of the purchase because things like stuff being trashed happened all the time back then.

Yes, it SHOULD, but it isn't. Meaning the process of retooling the classics suddenly becomes a lot more costly. Which was kinda my point.

QuoteI'm beginning to notice a disturbing trend here.  We always end up arguing back and forth... and I don't want to argue possibilities.  We've argued semantics and law.... ideas and philosophy.  You name it, we've argued it.  

I'm done arguing with you Erpy.  From this point forward you can tear apart what I say as much as you like.  I'm not going to respond to it.  Even when I say you make good points, you still insist on arguing with me.  That stops now.  I will not continue to argue with someone who, for all intents and purposes, seems to delight in getting the last word and arguing for arguing's sake.  I could say to you "Hey Erpy, I like your signature!" and you would probably argue with me about why I like your signature.  

Enough is enough.

Oberonqa, maybe that last part of my last post came out somewhat argumentative, but please don't mistake my posts as attempts to pick on you personally. It's true we've had plenty of disagreements... I think both of us have the tendency to reply when we read something we disagree with, which can cause heated discussions, but when I respond to a post, I don't discriminate on who's writing it. If you feel the way I word something is offensive or disrespectful, I'll be happy to rephrase things.

I asked whether this thing was about POS buying a commercial license or POS buying Sierra IP. You said it was about the latter, I disagreed and we ended up arguing/debating about why the latter was feasable or not. You're right, maybe we got carried away and started arguing about hypotheticals. This thing kinda got derailed.

So let's get back on topic. Let's speculate about the possibilities of POS buying a commercial license from Activision. Let's debate on whether this'll mean the first part will be commercial too or not. But let's drop the stuff about buying up Sierra IP and all. The Joystiq-article literally says POS talks about buying a commercial license...it's even in the URL, not a word in there is about buying up any IP. I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself whether this paragraph's purpose is about keeping this thread grounded in reality or simply about getting the last word in.


Delling

#597
Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 03:12:53 PM
QuoteSo what I'm basically saying is that if fan support in the form of monetary donations helped make it possible for POS to buy the Sierra IP, they might consider releasing chapter 1 or the whole of TSL for free.

Except they won't end up buying the Sierra IP.
If they do only purchase a commercial license, then yes, it would be silly to let it go for free. Sorry, I think there's been a misunderstanding in this thread. I assumed that the intention was to attempt to purchase the KQ IP (I believe as IIRC you have said, Erpy, that Activision likely wouldn't be willing to break up the IP, but purchasing just the KQ IP would be considerably cheaper in theory than purchasing all of the Sierra IP, etc.).

Is there a longer article or something other than this  out there somewhere?

*wants to see more than just those two paragraphs* XD

(Although in pulling that up for the link, I noticed that it is somewhat inconsistent... the article says intellectual property in one place and license in another while the title just says license *shrugs*)

EDIT: also...

Quote from: Erpy on March 28, 2010, 03:12:53 PM
LOL, sorry, you're right. That sentence was EXTREMELY poorly worded. What I meant to say was AGD1, AGD2 and I visited Lori Cole at her place some years back and got to read the design docs for a bit. Aziza's minigame in QFG2VGA is directly based on material from those documents.
Very cool! :thumbsup:
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
Don't touch me! I don't know where you've been!

Marquess of Pembroke
Duke of Saxony in Her Majesty's Court
Knight of the Swan for Her Imperial Highness

...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

"Let the locative live."

http://my.ddo.com/referral/Delling87

Erpy

#598
Hey, you're right. It DOES seem somewhat inconsistent. I missed that too. Hmmm...now I'm not so sure myself anymore what exactly they mean.

Um...the reason I presumed before Activision wasn't going to sell individual Sierra franchises is because the Sierra IP has always been somewhat clogged together. In the past, I've heard the Coles stated interest in the QFG rights and VU wouldn't let go of those individually either. The reason for this, I presume, is because selling the franchises individually leaves the IP holder with several less well-known franchises that they probably wouldn't be able to get rid of anymore. (stuff like the Manhunter series and Codename Iceman) So they bundle the stuff together in an all-or-nothing deal. Dividing them up would just lower the value of the individual franchises. If developers want to make a game based on one series, the IP holder can still license it out and the developer doesn't have to shell out an obscene amount of money. Both parties are happy.


waltzdancing

I think a commercial licence is more reasonable at this point, money wise. We would be paying Activision to allow the game to be released and they would be at least getting some of the profits too right? I honestly don't know. I would at least make a point in the contract that they can complete all the chapters and guarantee the release of them, even if Activision sells the IP to another party. This is what came to my mind after rereading the article again.