Author Topic: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?  (Read 50811 times)

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2010, 01:58:49 PM »
Baggins, I am unconvinced.

Okay, Cedric saves you from a wand blast that would otherwise have killed you, but let's be honest: they put that in there because it was the end of the game and they were like "ohhhhhhhhhhhh... we're about to end the game and he hasn't done ONE useful thing!"

But, take Cedric out of the picture....
So, the Weeping Willow could just have easily sung afteryou talked to her.
So, if the wolves hadn't captured him you would still have had to enter into Queen Icebella's palace to pass through the mountains. You would still have been captured and had to play the harp, defeat the yeti, and go on your way.
The Harpies would still have captured you, you would have escaped by playing the harp, picked up the conch shell and then if you went back to the Ancient Mariner you could still have given him the shell to tell him what your quest was.

Cedric didn't help solve puzzles, everything he did was automatic unless you were picking him up to carry him.
Cedric's narration didn't help, you still had red "x"s on 90% of the screens. It did help flesh out the world, yes, but the narrator could have done that to some extent.

The only time Cedric was at all, even a teeny bit, useful was that he allowed you to skip some exposition with Queen Icebella. Ooooh! That makes up for an entire game of being the most annoying character in the entire series! No, I'd rather have heard Graham say "I'm trying to save my family from the evil wizard Mordack" one more time, thanks.
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Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2010, 02:03:34 PM »
Baggins, I am unconvinced.

Okay, Cedric saves you from a wand blast that would otherwise have killed you, but let's be honest: they put that in there because it was the end of the game and they were like "ohhhhhhhhhhhh... we're about to end the game and he hasn't done ONE useful thing!"

But, take Cedric out of the picture....
So, the Weeping Willow could just have easily sung afteryou talked to her.
So, if the wolves hadn't captured him you would still have had to enter into Queen Icebella's palace to pass through the mountains. You would still have been captured and had to play the harp, defeat the yeti, and go on your way.
The Harpies would still have captured you, you would have escaped by playing the harp, picked up the conch shell and then if you went back to the Ancient Mariner you could still have given him the shell to tell him what your quest was.

Cedric didn't help solve puzzles, everything he did was automatic unless you were picking him up to carry him.
Cedric's narration didn't help, you still had red "x"s on 90% of the screens. It did help flesh out the world, yes, but the narrator could have done that to some extent.

The only time Cedric was at all, even a teeny bit, useful was that he allowed you to skip some exposition with Queen Icebella. Ooooh! That makes up for an entire game of being the most annoying character in the entire series! No, I'd rather have heard Graham say "I'm trying to save my family from the evil wizard Mordack" one more time, thanks.

Didn't you talk to him on different screens on Serenia? He was tremendous help in finding the town and bakehouse. ;)

Offline Baggins

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2010, 05:09:48 PM »
He also warns you about going into the forest, and hints that you'll need to be prepared before you go in there (and how you'll get lost if you aren't careful). But generally speaking he's kinda of the narrator to give exposition in screens where the narrator doesn't give anything and all you get is the X.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2010, 05:10:29 PM »
Yes....but the big sign warning you not to go into the forest also did that :)

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Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2010, 05:31:50 PM »
He also warns you about going into the forest, and hints that you'll need to be prepared before you go in there (and how you'll get lost if you aren't careful). But generally speaking he's kinda of the narrator to give exposition in screens where the narrator doesn't give anything and all you get is the X.
So what you're saying is, if they'd been less lazy about what you could interact with -- as they did in every prior KQ and in KQ6 -- Cedric is absolutely useless.

The prosecution rests. :P
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2010, 05:32:48 PM »
Well he also told Graham what was going on, and took him to Serenia... I suppose if Cedric had been spotted by Mordack and vaporized then and there, the adventure would have been pretty short. Graham would have been scratching his head on that hilltop forever.

BTW, narrator interaction was probably more limited in the original KQ1 and even KQ2 and KQ3 than it was in KQV, :p...

Check in KQ5 there are generally at least 2-3 things to see on each screen (in KQ5 you kinda have to hunt for them though, instead of the game automatically giving you a generic screen description). Go back and play KQ1,2,3, there are essentially 1-2 things to see on each screen, that includes the generic screen description  :p... there were some generic descriptions that could be brought up on every single screen... like "its a rock", "its the sky"... ya, mostly pointless, not particularly interesting.

4 might even been limited to 2-3 things on each screen, so was KQ1SCI (not counting the generic descriptions that appear in every screen).

It was KQ6 that really went out of the bounds of the previous games, having 4-6 things on each screen you could look at.

KQ7 and 8 were the worst of course :p... You were lucky if you found 1 thing that the characters would comment about.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 05:43:43 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2010, 05:50:00 PM »
Or, Cedric could have brought you to Serenia and stayed with Crispin!!

Talking to Cedric is about the same as a generic description, isn't it? The fact is, those early games immersed you because everything gave you a description even if it was just the generic one. KQ5 was an epic fail in this regard because no such interactions existed and they gave you a useless and annoying sidekick in a poor attempt to make up for it.
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2010, 05:57:30 PM »
Cedric is more the global screen description. Like the one where you type "look room" for each screen and it give you a description for the entire screen, plus describing additional things you might want to look at (the more specific type narrative items).

They limited the specific type narration to individual things on the screen (previous games had specific type narration as well, for example '"look at the store/house/cave entrance", "look at bell, look at flowerbox, look at mailbox, look at well, look at pump"). Those still exist in KQ5, 2-3 on every screen. But you gotta hunt for them know what your looking at to begin with.  Global screen descriptions in previous games might point you in the direction of looking at some of the more specific details in the screen.

Actually it was that with the parsers to an extent as well. Because the parser was limited to looking at things as long as you knew how to describe them to begin with. So in a way you had to hunt for the right word combinations.

The generics descriptions are the ones that say the same thing for every darn rock, tree, sky, etc on every screen. Like "this drab grey rock looks like every other rock, its boring"... kind of messages in KQ2 for example. So you seen it once you seem them all kind of descriptions. So they don't really count.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 06:12:26 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2010, 06:20:35 PM »
It's looking like we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm afraid I'm on Graham's side (ha!) in this case. While yes, Cedric did those things, I just don't see why he was needed to do those things. Apart from being a narrator substitute, he didn't really add anything to the game, IMO.

Well, a timeless quote or two and a focal point for fans, I suppose. ;)

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Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2010, 08:05:49 PM »
Or, Cedric could have brought you to Serenia and stayed with Crispin!!
This is pretty much what I was thinking, although it would have felt a bit odd to introduce a new character and then leave him and never bring him up again. That's why, as I said earlier, I would rather he had just been given a more important role than waiting and getting beaten up.

Bahaha, I just got the idea in my head of Graham running through a Super Mario Bros. castle and being told at the end, "Thanks, but Cedric is in another castle!" :P
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2010, 03:23:18 AM »
Don't you all realize, what's funny is your criticizing the design of KQ5 more than you're actually criticizing Cedric (your just using him as a focal point). You're rather pointing out the known fact that each game has been controversial in some way (with Roberta trying something new out, and having the fans criticize it). In that way its no different than Mask of Eternity.

I enjoy KQ5 as it is so I would probably wouldn't enjoy it as much if someone made a "special edition", and changed the plot so that Cedric was removed, and the game was Graham only, and all of Cedric's comments incorporated into the background screen descriptions. It just wouldn't be the same... Imo, it would lose some of its charm, quite a bit of the great art work seen in the game (the cuts in the Ice Palace to Cedric in the cage are some of my favorite bits in the game).

Cedric is part of a long line of "useless" sidekicks in other stories, where the hero is always having to go out of his way to save them, because they are to wimpy to save themselves. There is actually kind of genre or meme if you will related to the idea of "useless sidekicks".
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 03:32:29 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline B'rrr

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2010, 04:02:52 AM »
Don't you all realize, what's funny is your criticizing the design of KQ5 more than you're actually criticizing Cedric (your just using him as a focal point). You're rather pointing out the known fact that each game has been controversial in some way (with Roberta trying something new out, and having the fans criticize it). In that way its no different than Mask of Eternity.

And this is any different then you critisising the narrator?  ;)
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2010, 04:19:08 AM »
People criticize every game really... Yes, I choose to criticize the narrator (or rather the 4th wall breaking parts of the narrator).  I find TSL narrator more annoying than Cedric. At least Cedric didn't break the 4th wall, infact I would argue that Cedric was an attempt to allow the player the ability to interacdt with a "narrator" without breaking the 4th wall, by putting a narrator into the game as a real physical character. Also TSL's narrator really has little to do with the game play in the game. I think the game's interface system, and classic menu design is fun return to nostalgia of older era, in that sense they have copied the essence of previous games, even though the first episode has not captured the essence of adventure game puzzle solving. I can't wait for the second episode to see how they implement the real puzzles.

Also I just played the scene where Graham talks to the Ancient Mariner with and without Cedric. The scene is rather boring without Cedric's "What's in those pouuultices, my employer would be verrrry interested", and the Mariner's retort, "Gifts from the see my lad, gifts from the sea, ain't nothing special, you just need to know how ot use them, nothing your master would find particulary interesting". The whole scene is much shourter and more drab without that discourse going on to add flavor and more of a background to that character of the mariner.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 04:31:46 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline GoneTooLong

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2010, 05:41:40 AM »
The more I think about it... I feel a little bad for Cedric.  Nearly everyone dislikes him.  :(  Now I kind of hope he makes an appearance in TSL.  What are the chances?

Amy could play the part, that way the answer to the title of this thread would be "Yes"
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2010, 06:50:16 PM »
Ok here is a listing of total narrator comments (I won't count cedric comments, he has usually 1-3 per screen, plus the random ones he says, if you stand around doing nothing). Some comments are automatic when you enter or leave a screen, and some activated by attempting to talk to him. I'm mostly going to list the "look icon" comments per screen.

So basically I've noticed going through KQ5, is that in screens where Cedric doesn't show up, there are less Xs on screen. You tend to get a global description for the screen (generally can look at most areas on the screen to pull it up). For example many of the desert, the brushland or dark forest areas. Some of the desert screens you get a single generic global description (granted that's because the screen doesn't really have much to see but miles of sand dunes), but grows to two or three if you are in an Oasis, skeleton or near the northern cliffs screens. You do get some Xs on the temple oasis screen (mostly around the sand and sky), but there are are four things to look at around the screen (so it evens out). Infact you get a brief mention of the "desert floor" when you look at the cliffs, and since you could look at the desert floor in every other cliff screen, its not really missing. In the temple screen itself, you can look at three things (this includes a global description with no Xs) Inside the temple, lots of xs around the floor, but four things you can look at (plus a door closing warning, you have very little time to actually look at anything). But that's actually a fairly decent number of narrative details all things considered.

The elves cave has six things to see (including global description, and no Xs), pretty decent total.

There are some x in areas of the bandit camp (in the sandy portions). You can however still look at a total of four-eight things on screen (depending on when you visit the camp), so it rather balances out (actually the sand doesn't really count since you can look at sand everywhere else :p). Inside the tent there is a global description, and couple of things to look at.

Inside the town there are 6 or 7 things to look at going around the town (including a global description, and no Xs) That's actually pretty decent. Each of the shops themselves have at global description and 4-7 things to look at as well, also pretty good.

The Dark Forest, well the starting screen has 2-3 things to look at (one is a global description, no Xs on screen). Each screen the main forest screens has 3-5 things to see (all have global descriptions, no Xs). The witches house screen has a total of 6-9 things to look at (including a global description no Xs). Inside the house has 5-6 things to look at (including global description no Xs.) The tree screen has 3-4 things to see, but quite a few Xs around the edges. The forest exit screen has, 2 things to see on screen (including the global description no Xs). Each screen more or less has the same average amount of things to see, with only the heart tree having Xs.

If Cedric is on the screen, you tend to get more Xs in various places on the screen. Generally there are maybe are least 3-4  things you can see on screen. But this is not always the case, he's pretty talkative on the Inn screen, but you can literally look at 8-9 things in the screen. There are a few spaces of Xs around the grass and the sky (but the total number of things to look at evens it out a bit). Some of the totals are "ranges", as in it might be more or less depending on what's going on in the screen. Sometimes more things appear on screen than other times. I will be pointing out Xs regions as well (most appear in rather pointless areas like grass or the sky, or ground or floor in some places). INside the inn front room there are 5 things to look at (including a global description no Xs), the celler has 2-3 things to look at (including hte global description), the kitchen has 5-6 things to look at (including the global description).

Other screens counting the various Serenia woods screens (antill, honey tree, gypsy caravan, etc), have 3-4 things to look at (sometimes more). The gypsy screen has like 5 things to look at (initially, 2-3 things to look at after it leaves including a global description), the ant hill screen has 3-4, the bee tree has about 5-6. The willow screen has 4 or so. dark forest sign screen has 5-6 things to look at. The area with Herbert has 3-4 things to look at (including a global description for the entire screen no Xs), the snake screen has 2-3 things (including a global description for the entire screen no Xs). The gnome home screen has 6-8 things to look at, but lots of Xs, the total number of things on screen kinda of evens it out however.

On the Bakehouse screen there are 7-8 things to look at (so all in all pretty decent number of narration points). Again a few spaces of X's around grass and sky (but most things are interactive). Inside you there are about five things to look at (including a global description, not Xs)

On the outside of town screen, there are about 7 things to look at. There are some Xs around the sky and grass, but all in all it has a pretty decent number of interactive spots.

Ocassionally Cedric will speak up, if you try to interact with something on screen. The Universe Interpreter for example

Sometimes he will only speak up if something important is going on in the screen, I.E. another NPC pops up, the Bear, the Dog, etc.

Anyways I'll continue with counting the moutains, sea and islands later. However on average seems to vary between having as many narrative bits as KQ6 has for each of its screens, or in some cases having twice as many narrative points in the screens. The Xs so far more or less are located in pointless areas without much to actually see (sky, ground or grass, occasinally the top of a tree)... Its surprising why they didn't just bother to just use a "global-like descriptions" just cover those spaces. There are already messages in each of those screens that would have worked well as a global description.

Infact if you count cedric's narrations there are actually generally more things described than are descdribed in KQ6 or earlier KQ games on average in those screens, best I can tell. You basically jump each screens total by 2-3 extra descriptions. So between 5-12 descriptions or so (which is actually pretty descent if you compare to both earlier games and KQ6).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 07:13:35 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2010, 07:00:33 PM »
I'm sorry, but all of that considered, Cedric does *not* count as being the narrator and talking to him is NOT equivalent to interacting with the scene.

Cedric is a character involved in the game. This precludes him from being the narrator.
Since the "talk" icon is only one of the interactions (although I suppose you can always click the hand or eye on him and see what happens....) and it only functions on that particular part of the screen it is an inadequate substitute for player immersion and actively detracts from the gaming experience.

So, all you've done here by pointing out that there is more interactivity on screens where Cedric is *not* is prove me aboslutely correct. Cedric serves no purpose other than to ruin the game. Thank you. :P
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2010, 07:02:04 PM »
Yes even if you ignore Cedric's comments, and only count the narrator (the numbers above are narrative only, I kept cedrics comments out of the counts), there are still nearly as many narrative bits as there are KQ6 screens, and in some cases twice as many. The Xs so far in the game are stuck in spaces of areas that are pointless to look at for the most part. There is generally at least a global description if your looking at a physical landmark.

What it doesn't explain is why they didn't bother to use one of those many narrative bits as a "global description of the screen" there was no reason to have "Xs".

Go through KQ6 again, you'll find plenty of screens that only have 3 total descriptions (including global description), and some that go upwards 6 or 7 on average. So basically both have similar totals :p...

Now KQ6 has its Pawne Shoppe, that has lots of easter eggs and descriptions and goes way beyond the game's average for narrative descriptions for most screens. But that essentially is a fluke.
Quote
So, all you've done here by pointing out that there is more interactivity on screens where Cedric is *not* is prove me abos***ely correct. Cedric serves no purpose other than to ruin the game. Thank you.
This actually doesn't seem to be the case, there is just as many interactive bits on the screens with or without Cedric on the screen. What goes up is the amount of empty space when Cedric is around, with grass and sky becoming Xs. The pointless space between the many things you can actually look at...

Again as I said before, there was actually no reason to have those Xs, because there is usually one of the things you can look at would actually work quite well as a global description. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with Cedric of course, just whoever was behind linking the narratives to the background did a piss poor job of it.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 07:18:54 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2010, 07:16:26 PM »
I really don't mind a global description that pops up with any interaction over most of the screen. I do mind an ugly red x.
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2010, 07:20:01 PM »
Quote
So, all you've done here by pointing out that there is more interactivity on screens where Cedric is *not* is prove me abos***ely correct. Cedric serves no purpose other than to ruin the game. Thank you.

Like I said, this actually doesn't seem to be the case, there is just as many interactive bits on the screens with or without Cedric on the screen. What goes up is the amount of empty space when Cedric is around, with grass and sky becoming Xs. The pointless space between the many things you can actually look at...

Again as I said before, there was actually no reason to have those Xs, because there is usually one of the things you can look at would actually work quite well as a global description. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with Cedric of course, just whoever was behind linking the narratives to the background did a piss poor job of it.

Its obvious it doesn't have anything to do with Cedric, since it happens in a few screens in areas Cedric doesn't follow (temple entrance, temple, bandit's camp, heart tree, etc).

That being said, i think the game would be quite a bit more boring if you stripped cedric out of the game completely :p... He makes the game feel not as lonely. As I said I like the art they did for him in the Ice Palace, he's also used to give the Ancient Mariner something to do, besides just send you to Mordack, and you get a bit more of backstory to the mariner about his knowledge of the sea (that you don't get if you attempt to leave Cedric behind), basically Cedric makes the Mariner more interesting. Occasionally Cedric mentions something about a character or places history or culture that you don't get out of the narrator, which makes the world seem a bit more alive. This is my opinion, and opinions vary. I don't expect you to agree. I'm just saying I really wouldn't enjoy your version of the game as much, if it was made...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 07:28:45 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Jafar

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Re: Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2010, 07:31:57 PM »
 All the Cedric hate going around saddens me. I find him undeserving of anything more than mock-rage.

Just my 2 cents... ::)
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