Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?

[Baggins]

The central story to KQ1, was "find the three treasures" and "become king"... (there wasn't really much of an ending, king falls over, and you get "The End")

The central story to KQ2 and you learn it form the introduction cutscene, is "find the three keys", discover the enchanted land, find a way to the Crystal Tower, and "find a queen" (you get a slightly better ending, showing an actual wedding, and then return to the castle for their Honeymoon)...

Good gord... they are just as limited in there simplicity... Don't count KQ1 SCI (it actually added a stronger narrative, and like 2-3 extra characters), the original didn't have that luxury...

BTW, you don't have to kill Dahlia to beat the game as I recall, that's actually completly optional... (much like Dracula). The fact that hte witch is Dahlia isn't actually mentioned within the game... You can actually avoid her. There are quite a few alternative ways to solve most puzzles in KQ1 which involve using lesser treasures and/or weapons lieing around the world... You can pretty much avoid most encounters with the exception of the Dragon, the Giant, and the Leprichauns.

As its been said both KQ1 and KQ2 rather what they called "treasure hunts" back in the day (more or less similar to what Zork games, or Collassal Cave were, but with graphics).

Also I recommend reading this, this was the original release manual for KQ1, I think;

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/The_King%27s_Appeal

Quite a bit different than the later release... Even more simple... Originally the witch had no importance other than to be yet another encounter for Graham...

[crayauchtin]

*sigh*
Okay, I know that not everyone's mother is an author (mine is), so not everyone understands the differences between plot and story or the differences between goal/objective and task.

The plot is the order in which the major events occur (everything else is what's called sideplot). The story is what happens during the plot points, in between the plot points, and why.

The goal/objective is what a character hopes to achieve. Every character has one. (This is also a basic in acting -- you must always know the goal and objective of your character, even if you are one for three seconds and have no lines.) The task is what you must do to achieve your objective.
What you described as the story, Baggins, are the objectives.

So, let's use these basics building blocks and apply them to King's Quest 1 and then King's Quest 2.

King's Quest 1
Plot:
-King Edward loses the three treasures (technically, if you read the manual, this is three separate plot points but if you are just going through the game, it is only one plot point.)
-Graham is sent to retrieve the treasures.
-Graham retrieves the Mirror
-Graham defeats Dahlia
-Graham retrieves the Chest
-Graham retrieves the Shield
-Graham returns to the Castle
-Edward dies
-Graham is crowned (which I believe is just assumed in the original, because that was Edward's last words )

The storytelling of this is pretty good -- although certainly not the strongest in the series. Though, through the manual, you know how each treasure is stolen you don't ever get an explanation for how it ended up exactly where it ended up. Some you can assume -- the Mirror and the Chest, but the Shield is kind of like... "Uhm?"
Also, without the manual, it is not *entirely* clear that Dahlia is the villain who betrayed Edward and stole the chest. It is hinted at, certainly, and it makes it make sense that the note that gives you a clue to get to the chest is in her house. That's another weak spot -- but if you read the manual, this is how the game has you deal with the villain. (It might be better if you also dealt with the sorcerer and the dwarf, to be fair.)
So, all in all, it's pretty clear on what's going on.

Then we have....
King's Quest 2
Plot:
-Valanice is captured by Hagatha and locked away
-see Valanice in the mirror, depart for Kolyma
-find the door
-find the first key, unlock door
-find the second key, unlock door
-kill Dracula
-find the third key, unlock door
-catch and release fish, ride fish to island
-rescue Valanice
-marry Valanice

Now, the thing is... the first two things are only in the manual. There's no introduction *at all*. That's the first problem with the story. The second is, there's really zero explanation as to the door, the keys, or why the keys are where they are. Beside that, how does Dracula figure in to all of this, and why do you have to kill him instead of dealing with Hagatha? What about the enchanter? The dwarf? There's NO explanations, they just have you go through the tasks. You have to look for any explanation there might be, it doesn't come along with actually fulfilling any of the plot points. That's not just a failure in storytelling -- that's not storytelling.

Yes, they are simple stories. That's part of why it's outrageous that the second one was barely told!

[Baggins]

Look you looking at KQ1's story in hindsight (based on all the expanded material, from the second version of the manual, the Companion, but not the game itself), did you even bother to read the original KQ1 manual plot (I posted above)?

Dahlia wasn't even part of the original story... According to the original manual the witch in the game was a nobody... who moved into Daventry sometime after the fact.... (well its not even that specific, she's more just treated as a generic fairy tale obstacle)

In the kingdom of Daventry, King Edward is dying. Although his kingdom had been wealthy in the past, recent disasters and have brought hardship to his loyal subjects. To make matters worse, the king has no wife, children, or relatives to inherit the throne. Unless the king's quest is fulfilled, the country will be doomed.

King Edward calls his bravest knight, Sir Grahame, to he throne. The noble knight bows before the king and asks, "Your Royal Highness, what may I do for you?"

File:Edwardthrone.jpg The weakened king answers, "Sir Grahame, Daventry is now a poor country desperately in need of help to overcome its misfortunes. Recently, I have heard tales of three magical objects that would end Daventry's troubles. I am an old man, Sir Grahame, and my death is near. I am depending on you to search the countryside and find three objects. If you do, the throne will be yours."

Sir Grahame eagerly questions the king, "Please, Your Magesty, what are these objects?"

King Edward wearily looks at the knight and says "You need to find a jewel-inlaid treasure chest that refills with gold coins every time it is emptied. Also, an enchanted mirror exists revealing the future to the beholder. Finally, there is a magic shield that fends off all enemies. With these objects, Daventry will never be poor again!"

The knight declares, "Nothing would give me more pleasure, my King, than to capture these items. Where do I start?"

"That, Sir Grahame, is what you must find out. I only know they are in the kingdom of Daventry and are guarded by dangerous characters. It's an extremely risky task that could be fatal. Go now, Sir Grahame but be careful. Please do not fail me or your kingdom."

Quietly, Sir Grahame leaves the room and hurries down the hallway of the Royal Palace. "A jewel-inlaid treasure chest, an enchanted mirror, and a magic shield," he murmurs, "but where to find them?"

Sir Grahame promises himself that he will not return to the king until has found the magical objects.

With deterimination, he leaves the castle and begins the quest.

File:RoyalPalace.jpg [edit] Helpful and Dangerous CreaturesDangerous creatures roam the mystical land of Daventry, trying to end your quest. Fortunately, a few kindly characters try to help you. You can avoid the dangerous characters in several ways by finding out their weaknesses.

The Dangerous Characters

You must think and act quickly when you meet the dangerous characters of Daventry. The dangerous characters include a sorcerer, dwarfs, ogres, a hungry wolf, and an airborne wicked witch.

Helpful characters

Helpful characters in the kingdom want to aid you in your quest. You must take advantage of their help to successfully complete your quest. Some of these characters include an elf, a fairy godmother, and a large condor.

Retrieved from "http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/The_King%27s_Appeal"

Infact most of the story is in the manual , later edition manual, not the original one (is not actually mentiond in the game)... :p... Infact there is nothing in the original KQ1 that states that the treasures were stolen from Daventry, Edward just tells you to find them, and that he knows of said treasures...



Infact most of the information about Dahlia and the witch in KQ1 being the same being actually originates out of the King's Quest Companion as far as I know (albeit the cover for KQ1 for Sega implies it as well).

There's no introduction *at all*

You are wrong about the KQ2, there is an introduction dude... It shows graham on his throne, wishing he had a queen, and it mentions that he hasn't been able to find any anywhere in the kingdom. He decides to look in the mirror, sees Valanice, is told about the crystal tower, and the enchanted land, and is told that he can find an entrance to the land through a magical doorway in Kolyma. He decides to find head to kolyma, to find the doors, and save Valanice... By the way the description text in KQ2 is seven paragraphs long and fully animated... With several major actions shown on screen at once. The mirror shows 2-3 images, Graham switches from wearing his crown to his adventurer'ss hat, etc. Infacdt, the original KQ1 really didn't have an introducdtion... Unless you count that message above... It wasn't even animated...



You probably hit escape before it shows up, its just past the credit screen....

the other thing you missed, is that each door has a riddle, that explains where the three keys are hidden, that' is where the key's backstories are mentioned vaguely... That's actually more than the original KQ1 had... You just kinda had to randomly discover were the three treasures were kept... in the original version of KQ1...

Also its probably little known trivia, but from what I've been able to discover the early manuals weren't apparently even written by Roberta, or rather she had little input into them. Especially with KQ2 and KQ3, they were written by Anette Childs... Roberta wrote the text in game, so the stories don't always match up... There is actually little about Hagatha in game, because it doesn't seem as if Roberta considered that important. Much like the generic witch in KQ1 (original version of the story, not the remake or the updated manual, or the KQ Companion), Hagatha 'is' just another random witch. I'm not entirely sure if there are lines in KQ2 which connect her to Valanice and the tower. Look at Dahlia or anything related to her in original KQ1, there is no indication that she's in anyway connected to the treasures... (much like Edward's message above). Infact I would argue KQ1 had no introduction, it puts you right into the game, from the get go... and every action is interactive including the whole "bow to king", and "talk to king".

KQ2 was the first game to bring about the newfangled, "intro cutscene", and that cutscene is about seven paragraphs long....

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Dahlia#Behind_the_scenes

Actually as far as I know its the King's Quest Companion that linked the "wicked witch" to Dahlia of the second manual version. Its certainly not in the game.

Here are most of the KQ1AGI quotes (there are a few more talking about some of her nasty habits, but nothing about the treasures), notice how she is just described as a generic witch...;

Narrator (KQ1AGI): "It's a witch swooping through the sky... She's trying to catch you! Look out!", "The wicked witch is not interested in chitchat.", "This is not your friendly-type witch.", "The witch swoops down, grabs you by the neck, and carries you off to a fate worse than death". "As the wicked witch flew over her house, she dropped you... in her cage! If you can't get out, you may become the secret ingredient in this witches' brew!", "There is no way to kill a flying witch.", "The witch mutters, "I am going to get my oven ready to cook someone for dinner (yum).", "The old witch is one of the most hideous sights you have ever seen. I would never trust her.", "Courageously, you manage to push the witch into the oven where she flashes and melts into a harmless blob. Congratulations! This little house is surprisingly considerably neat considering that a wicked witch lives here.", "Rats! She has cast some spell to keep you from escaping!. The witch remarks "Oh, how nice of you to come for dinner (cackle, cackle)"

Whereas a riddle in KQ2 door, actually pokes a nod towards Dracula. Plus a few details form the Grandma's house also nods towards Dracula's background. That's more than can be said for most characters in KQ1 original

Oh, and another bit of trivia going back to the narrator, there was no "global descriptions" for any screen in the original KQ1... So the screens are rather bland. You instead get a "you need to be more specific" warning (its not actually in red, but I thought I'd just bolden it). KQ2 was the first to add the global room descriptions. If you thought Xs were bad...

So ya, in comparison KQ2's story is much more well defined... KQ1AGI was the one that was "barely" told (in comparison)...

[sahara]

Maybe this has already been covered... but does anyone know if Cedric will be making an appearance in TSL?  His last appearance, that I know of, was in AGDI's KQ2+, as he was getting chased off the screen by a sword-wielding King Graham.  hehehe 

[wilco64256]

Crispin had to turn Cedric into a half tiger / half goat to save his life after he got blasted at the end of KQV - he was going to make an appearance in this game but the tiger half ate the goat half and he died.

[sahara]

poor cedric!!  Daventry should put him on a coin to commemorate his life and service to King Graham during KQ5!  RIP Cedric.

[Baggins]

Does the heads eat the tails?

[wilco64256]

There was a limited run of those coins made, but only in silver so Graham has no use for them.

[sahara]

At least Cedric got some recognition then, even if they were only silver coins.  Without him, what would Graham have done?  Alexander may never have met Cassima.  Rosella may never have married Edgar.  Cedric was in the right place at the right time, and didn't hesitate to offer his help  I just wish they would have given him more of an interesting personality in KQ5... it would have been cool if he had been this intellectual little owl dude who could come up with really philosophical or witty quotes but who also had a kickbutt side to him too when Graham would be under attack or something... for example, he should swoop down and kill that snake or poke out the bear's eyes with his beak.

[Damar]

Personally I liked the narrator.  Certainly more so than Cedric (who I never really hated, but still I kind of wish he'd maybe stayed with Crispin instead of following me around and telling me all the places he didn't want to go.)  I understand that the narrator seems a little more sarcastic and self-aware than past Kings Quest narrators, but honestly I think she has more in common with Kings Quest narrators than Space Quest narrators.  I mean, calling Graham dense and telling him that thievery runs rampant in his family aren't in the same ball park as Gary Owens talking about that "well armored orb atop your shoulders," having mushroom aliens point up at your incinerating shuttle and talk about how there's no intelligent life in the universe, or having the Two Guys show up and do a play by play and color commentary of your best death scenes.  I think the Silver Lining narrator has more in common with the punny death remarks make by the Kings Quest VI narrator which could sometimes be joking around at your expense ("just want to be loved by you" when you get strangled by the borderline clinging vines springs to mind).  And those, though maybe not quite as sarcastic, are closer to this narrator.  The Kings Quest IV narrating text would every so often call you crazy (usually if you were trying to kiss zombies and such.)  And of course the narrating text in Kings Quest II flat out yelled at you if you tried to kill Valanice (ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR GOURD!!!)  And the narrator actually steps in and kills you if you try to kill the monk.

And past Kings Quest narrators were self-aware at times as well.  You got a whole response on the stuffed bear in Kings Quest VI.  You got a special scene with the developers and a really badly written rap in Kings Quest IV (the original version, not the ones that nearly everyone has now, though you can still find the videos on youtube.)  You're told that the mountain spring in Kings Quest III tastes like Sierra water.  And of course you got the blatant plug for Space Quest I on the mountain top in Kings Quest II.  And a sign for Kings Quest III in the forest.  And a plug for Kings Quest IV in Kings Quest III.  So yeah, while I get that the Silver Lining narrator was a little different in how she was written, I really do think she's still very much a Kings Quest narrator.

Plus I find her voice very soothing.  I could listen to her all day.

[KatieHal]

Thanks Damar. And welcome to the forums, as well!

Oh Gary Owens. Classic! If the Space Quest franchise is ever restored, I would really hope he could come back as the narrator!

Haha, I also never knew the KQ2 narrator killed you if you tried to kill the monk.

[Damar]

Yeah, when you type "kill monk" the game says something like, "Anyone who would kill a man of the cloth doesn't deserve to play this game.  Therefore we will end it."  Then Graham falls over dead.

And yeah, Gary Owens is quite literally the perfect narrator for Space Quest.  No one else could or should even attempt to pull it off.  It's a thing of beauty to see such perfect casting.

And hey, thanks for the welcome.  I figured since I had to make a login ID to download the game, I might as well put it to use every so often.

[kindofdoon]

Not only is it possible to beat the game without ever using the talk icon, but I can't even think of a single example of it providing a marginally useful hint.

I'm fine with having "fluff" in the game, conversationally speaking. I'm NOT fine with that fluff replacing narration. I'm also not fine with making someone a companion that is in nearly every screen and does absolutely NOTHING. And I'm CERTAINLY not fine with a big ol' red "x" coming up on the screen! It's not just that he's useless, it's that he's *important* and useless!

I actually like the red "X" better than the narrator long-windedly saying "that's not useful". It's more efficient.

[Baggins]

First you have to define what breaking the fourth wall is actually. Its when the narrator and the player character are able to acknowledge each other, and chat it up essentially. Or the player acknowledges you as the player, as if you personally exist to the character.

In early KQ, the narrator was more or less described the  "character's own thoughts". Although it occasionally morphed into being "we at Sierra thank you for playing, and please relaod cause you died" type sayings during a death scene. But you never had the character directly acknowledge the narrator itself.

KQ2 has the one point where the narrator directly kills you, most cases Graham is painfully unwhare that the narrator exists (I.E. its not a real being from in-universe perspective).

In KQ6 there is only one example where the Alexander actually talks to the narrator and/or the player, the Cliffs of Logic if you fall down three times, and Alexander tells the player to "Hey, stop doing that!!!" You have to go out of your way to find it.

And past Kings Quest narrators were self-aware at times as well.  You got a whole response on the stuffed bear in Kings Quest VI.

 
This one is actually played straight. yes its a plug, but its not a "self awarenes". It basically treats "California" as a real place that the bear was "stolen" from. Alexander doesn't respond to to the narrator or the player (unlike the fall from the cliffs of logic three times easter egg).

Narrator (KQ6): The world-famous talking bear has been sulking ever since his abduction from a small mountain community in California. He refuses to discuss real estate.

ou're told that the mountain spring in Kings Quest III tastes like Sierra water.  And of course you got the blatant plug for Space Quest I on the mountain top in Kings Quest II.  And a sign for Kings Quest III in the forest. And a plug for Kings Quest IV in Kings Quest III.

These are played straight as well, not the Graham or Alexander talking to the narrator, but literally seeing things that confuse him, a sign on a tree, a mysterious vision in a hole. You are given graham or alexander's thoughts of what they are seeing. These fall more under anachronisms if anything, rather than a true fourth wall being broken. These are things the character is lead to believe actually exist in within the world (he literally sees them, they are written on a note, on the back of a tapestry, etc), even if they are strange. Rather than being disembodied narrator itself.

Narrator (KQ2): "Briefly befuddled by this bizarre event, you brace yourself and continue with the Quest before you."
Narrator (KQ2): "You are in a grove of giant trees. A sign appears attached to the back of one of the trees.", "King Graham scratches his head in puzzlement at this confusing message. It doesn't appear to be a part of his quest."

Narrator (KQ3): You lift the bottom of tapestry and peer behind it. The wall is filled with cracks. You can see why Manannan would hang a tapestry here. (There are also dozens of charcoal-scribbled drawings, diagrams, maps, and notes to programmers, with the legend "King's Quest IV," but you're uninterested in this, since you presently have your hands full with "King's Quest III".) You lower the tapestry and smooth out the wrinkles."

It's not the narrator, its a literal sign Graham finds on a tree, or charcoal drawings written on a wall. It that confuses them or they find it uninteresting. Basically an anachronism. Another anachronism would be in KQ1 SCI, in the game graham thinks that maybe he had joined the Adventure's Correspondence School he could have been able to pick locks, but he didn't so he can't. This is Graham's thoughts, not Graham talking to the narrator, or the narrator talking to graham.


In KQ2, yes there is the example where you can attempt to kill the monk, and get punished by the Narrator for it. Graham isn't able to have self awareness to it, since he's already dead. Death scenes have always been the general limits to narrator directly rediculing the player (but there is no indication that PC itself is awhare of the narrator). But it is the one example in the game where the Narrator switchs into more of the role of Graham's thoughts into something else, and directly interferes. Again, its one of the only true examples in the game where this actually happens (other than few secret easter eggs, like one where you can ask "who designed this game?" or some such thing, and it gives you a list of developers).

In most cases these true fourth walls being broken and/or anachronisms were cleverly hidden, you had to actually discover them (like the "kill Valanice" comment). BTW, the series that's really known for its "Sierraverse" style anachronisms is actually Quest for Glory. Things relating to King's Quest, Police Quest, Ecoquest, or other games appear routinely within the worlds. Delphineus appears in a lake in QFG1, Submarine from Codename:Iceman in the original. A Rosella doll in QFG2, the comments that Erana looks like a fairy you once knew, Genesta, etc etc. You can answer Cedric in QFG4, to make Leshy shudder, etc. These are all played with a straight face, as something the character actually sees, or knew. Not the player acknowledging the mystical floating narrator.

If anything the problem isn't that the occasional fourth wall is broken, but the fact that this narrator in TSL (its not Amy, its the ingame text), that breaks it more often than any previous ingame narrator before. She is reaching Space Quest levels of fourth wall breaking, above and beyond the number of fourth walls broken in earlier king's quest games. You were lucky to find 1 or two true fourth walls broken, in the earlier games. In this one they are every other line... Most are in plain sight, easy to do actions, not hidden, out in the open. Some are kind of just thrown at you.

[kindofdoon]

I agree. The more jokes/4th wall breaking, the less funny/interesting each becomes.

[Lambonius]

Also agree.    BTW, what a post, Baggins!  Very informative and well put together.   

[Baggins]

Thank you.

Anyways ya KQ2 does have a narrator that acknowledges the "player" "you" a bit more than other games in the series. Though usually to to describe "graham's thoughts and point of view" But its usually played straight, and without insulting you. Graham on the other hand is blissfully unawhere that you are playing god and "controlling his actions".

But the reason why the narrator occasionally acknowledges the player is actually written into the manual, and also played seriously (in such a way that it rarely feels as if its breaking the forth wall.) Actually narrators exist outside of wall to begin with its part of being a narrator, there job is to interact with the audience;

Only you, my bold adventurer have the power to finish this tale. Accompany King Graham on his quest to find the magic keys. Encounter characters of legend, folklore and fantasy. Explore underground caverns, eerie towers, and ocean wonderlands. Help him rescue the enchanted maiden, so he can lay his kingdom and his heart at her feet.

You will be faced with challenges that would intimidate those of lesser timbre. Summon all your strength and courage. Leave no stone unturned, no avenue unexplored, and your perseverance will be richly rewarded.

It may be possible to find each key through more than one avenue. The more imaginative your solutions, the greater you reward.

Study all the ancient lores for clues. Along the way collect as many treasures as you can - treasures fit for a queen.

You and King Graham will not be able to fulfill the prophecy without mapping your progress. Draw a map showing what different directions lead where, objects found, dangerous areas -- any and every landmark you see along the way. And don't think that because you've been through an area once, that it will always be the same. The population of Kolyma is anything but stationary!

Basically both the manual and the game treats the player as the secret "companion" to Graham one he doesn't know is there. As I said before you are kinda playing a "god" or guardian angel.  The narrator in this case is intermediary in only a few cases (the monk, trying to kill Valanice, if you ask one of those easter egg questions, "What is Graham name?"). But as far as Graham is concerned you don't exist. In most cases where the narrator does talk to the player, its neither to insult the player but just to inform in a serious manner, or the occasional "thank you for playing the game" messages if you die. Generally respectful.

In anycase, its generally the job of narrators, such as in plays that are ones that supposed to "talk directly to the audience, or interact with the audience" but generally never to the characters within the play itself. They are like that 3rd person omniscient POV in novels, that gives you details that the characters in the story wouldn't know, or won't discover, but might be interesting to you as the reader. They aren't a character within the story itself, when they break that barrier and start talking to the characters in the play, and the characters in the play start acknowledging the narrator or the audience, that's when you start "breaking that fourth wall".

There is a difference between a serious narrator, that offers explanation, and one that ridicules the audience, and cracks jokes at the audience expense. While the latter can be nice occasionally, it probably should be limited. As someone above said, the more you do, the less funny it becomes. But its made worse if the truly breaks the fourth wall and leads into an interaction between the story's character with the narrator, or the story's character acknowledging the player/audience :p...

[noonchild]

[kindofdoon]

Also agree.    BTW, what a post, Baggins!  Very informative and well put together.   

Yeah, really! Baggins has a ridiculous amount of knowledge about King's Quest.

[noonchild]

Yes indeed, and my smiley was all in good jest, I always enjoy reading Baggins posts, I love learning new things about KQ and the knowledge in impressive.