Is TSL Narrator the new Cedric?

[B'rrr]

cute picture 

[kindofdoon]

Overall I thought the narrator was fine, although there were a few bits that could be improved upon.

Mainly, I just came here to say that if there is a snake, any kind of snake, anywhere in the series, the narrator HAS to say, "Watch you, Graham! A pOIsonous snake!" If there are no snakes in the series, one should be added. Seriously, I'd settle for a picture of a snake or something, just to get that line in.

I am confident that the team has a POIsonous snake in the game somewhere. They've already referenced one KQ meme in the first Episode ("'Tis beyond his reach!").

[Enchantermon]

We tried, but Graham wasn't too keen to the idea. (Image courtesy of Chris Uskho)

Words cannot describe the amount of awesome present in that picture.

[kindofdoon]

If only Graham could manhandle snakes like that in KQV, life would have been so much easier!

[Flubly]

So what is to say that your written lines are better, more kings quest like then for example the ones I wrote? why should your style be used over mine? is KQ6 more of a Kings Quest game then for example KQ1?  

If the team suddenly got the time and recources to change the current narrations, why should they change it the way you proposed? True, it would make those that are a fan of the descriptions in KQ6 perhaps more pleased about the game, but not those that like it the way KQ1 was. It might even make others more angry, even with only one episode out there are people that think that this is going to be a KQ6 remake, wouldn't changing the narrating to be more like KQ6 strengthen their case? They can not please everyone sadly.

KQ6 is thematically very similar to the rest of the King's Quest games.  Its difference in style is one of voice, not really of subject exploration (though there is more character drawing, not development, than usual).  Also, there are plenty of short, "boring" descriptions in KQ6 that are just like the examples you gave from KQ1.  "Alexander pulls out his magic map."

Your argument of subjectivity doesn't really defend anything as much as it destroys everything.  It's an argument that defends any interpretation of King's Quest, no matter what.  If I made a pornographic game, it would please some but not others.  Can't please everybody!  

Even though I'm not a subjectivist, I'll get in one's shoes for the sake of the argument and also to not lead this into philosophy.  The art form ceases to have any social/group meaning because it's only concerned with preaching to the choir (a specific subgroup) rather than communicating to the larger audience.  I would rather have you make me understand the route that this game took, instead of just repeating which route was taken.  I know the road, I just don't know why you took it beyond a vague idea of interest in the psychological (which has not played out to be anything more than surface sentimentalism and shallow insight so far).

[Lambonius]

I love your posts, Flubly.  I really do.   

[sahara]

Saw your recent newsletter where you talk about some changes coming with Ep. 2.  Sounds great!  Can't wait to play it.  I just want to reiterate that merely making the narrations shorter isn't exactly what's called for.  Yes, some narrations ought to be shorter, no doubt about that, but the big thing is that they just need significant editing from the outside.  Don't just have the original writers go through and shorten a bunch of narrations.  Now, no one is saying you guys are bad writers.  You are all very talented and passionate about your work.  Everyone needs this kind of help... just get an outside editor (someone not directly involved with writing the original copy) to tweak/sharpen a few things here and polish a few things there.  It will make the game MUCH better!  I'm not talking about complete re-writes everywhere or changing your guys' vision or anything.  There are some serious rough edges to much of the writing we've seen so far, but the "bones" are solid, if that makes any sense.  Maybe it's too late to do anything about the "longer" narration recordings, but you can still make sure the shorter narrations have all gone through several stages of editing!  

[Baggins]

[kindofdoon]

Saw your recent newsletter where you talk about some changes coming with Ep. 2.  Sounds great!  Can't wait to play it.  I just want to reiterate that merely making the narrations shorter isn't exactly what's called for.  Yes, some narrations ought to be shorter, no doubt about that, but the big thing is that they just need significant editing from the outside.  Don't just have the original writers go through and shorten a bunch of narrations.  Now, no one is saying you guys are bad writers.  You are all very talented and passionate about your work.  Everyone needs this kind of help... just get an outside editor (someone not directly involved with writing the original copy) to tweak/sharpen a few things here and polish a few things there.  It will make the game MUCH better!  I'm not talking about complete re-writes everywhere or changing your guys' vision or anything.  There are some serious rough edges to much of the writing we've seen so far, but the "bones" are solid, if that makes any sense.  Maybe it's too late to do anything about the "longer" narration recordings, but you can still make sure the shorter narrations have all gone through several stages of editing!  

The team has already listened to fan feedback and is giving us the option of shorter narrations. Obviously sharper editing would improve the game, but imho there are much more important things than script editing, especially considering the fact that the narrator has already recorded all her lines.

[Damar]

Agreed, there's definitely more important things for them to work on at this point in the process.  Like releasing the games!  And besides, cutting down the narrations would certainly count as editing, or at least the closest you're going to get with the game being as completed as it is.  And I really can't imagine them bringing in another team member this late in the process (as badly as I'm sure we'd all love to be that "outside editor").  I mean the game is all but done, it sounds like, except the housekeeping issues.

On second thought, I take that back.  Tell you what, Silver Lining team, I offer my services as outside editor.  Here's how it's going to go down: Now, odds are I'm just going to tell you that we can cut some stuff down, or it's good as written, but just to be sure, send me the games now.  I'll play through them all and then send you my notes, which will probably be what I said above.  What do you say?  Do we have a deal?

Seriously, at this point, with the switch between short and long narrations, any other issues are going to be a "you can't please everyone" thing.  The game is what it is, this is the writing style they wanted and upon listening to it, they felt it was good.  And they've taken complaints into account and shortened narrations.  If someone still doesn't like the narration, then that's just on them.  And that's not a judgment.  Heck, I couldn't (and still can't) stand Josh Mandel's voice as Graham in Kings Quest.  He just doesn't sound like Graham to me and I'm not a fan of his voice acting.  That's my opinion.  I can still play and enjoy KQV (or I could if Vista would let me.)  It's the same with the narrations.  If, even after the narration changes, people don't like it, then that's just their opinion.  What's important is that you can still play and enjoy the game.

[Lambonius]

Realistically, the team can't do much about the writing in TSL if it wants to release the subsequent episodes in a timely fashion.  For future game design efforts, particularly those they expect people to pay for--yeah, it would be a pretty good idea to have a third party (non-fanboy--sorry Damar ) editor come in to edit and critique ALL the writing--character dialogue, object descriptions, everything.  As previously mentioned--you can't edit your own work objectively.  It just isn't possible.  TSL is already set in stone, as has been bluntly stated numerous times--but hopefully next time, they will take these critiques to heart and have an objective, skilled, third party editor go through the writing EARLY in the game design process (i.e. pre-voicework) so that future POS games end up as polished as possible.

[kindofdoon]

I personally found that the with only a few exceptions, the writing in TSL did not need further editing.

[sahara]

The team has already listened to fan feedback and is giving us the option of shorter narrations. Obviously sharper editing would improve the game, but imho there are much more important things than script editing, especially considering the fact that the narrator has already recorded all her lines.

Assuming a team were starting from a clean slate, I would think the script should be priority #1, particularly for an adventure/interactive fiction game.  As has been said before, we can't expect Heavy Rain-level graphics in such a "fan" project (though TSL's visuals ARE excellent), given the obvious limitations, but it's not asking too much to hope for a tight, polished script.  I also think a lot of the criticism, whether people agree with it or not, should not simply be seen as complaints from "unhappy" and hard-to-please players who simply need concessions to be made happy, but instead should be seen as feedback from people who are rooting for the team and who want to see this relatively high profile "fan" game be the best it can be.  The fact that TSL has not presented itself as just any other "fan" game, and the fact that the team seems to have commercial aspirations, means that their work will be judged by a higher standard.  I think that is a good thing.  It's a sign of respect that people would expect a lot from a team rather than choose to make apologies for them.

That said, I didn't realize that even the new, shorter narration versions were set in stone.  I guess it's a done deal, then.    I'm sure Episode 2 will be a lot of fun and worth the wait!  

[wilco64256]

I personally found that the with only a few exceptions, the writing in TSL did not need further editing.

See, there's the tough thing for us - we have had some people saying they don't like the writing, but plenty of others who have loved it.  I think that no matter how much editing is done, any writer will still have critics.  I've read several books that were "professionally" edited, but were just absolute crap as far as the plot development and story were concerned.  I've also read books that weren't particularly great as far as editing goes, but the story was still fantastic.  It really mainly boils down to personal preference.

[crayauchtin]

That said, I didn't realize that even the new, shorter narration versions were set in stone.  I guess it's a done deal, then.    I'm sure Episode 2 will be a lot of fun and worth the wait!  

I think it's not that they wouldn't have liked to find another solution, it's just that all of the recording has already been done. To edit the script and rerecord would push back release dates at least six months -- and although there have been complaints about the script, I don't think anyone wants to wait that much longer!

[Cat1]

I personally found that the with only a few exceptions, the writing in TSL did not need further editing.

See, there's the tough thing for us - we have had some people saying they don't like the writing, but plenty of others who have loved it.  I think that no matter how much editing is done, any writer will still have critics.  I've read several books that were "professionally" edited, but were just absolute crap as far as the plot development and story were concerned.  I've also read books that weren't particularly great as far as editing goes, but the story was still fantastic.  It really mainly boils down to personal preference.

In a way that's true, but I think that one of the main problems for me was that the writing seemed unnecessarily wordy, in a way that I have been taught is 'bad' writing.  For instance in the description of the vases, a whole sentence is taken to say, "These vases are fine antiquities indeed."  Maybe it's because I've spent practically the whole year trying to cut words out of a research report, but to me that sentence is crying out to be edited to: "These fine antique vases... (and then carry on with the description)".  In that way you get rid of the useless words "are" and "indeed".

As I said, I've been taught that this kind of thing is bad writing, so for me it seems like it's not even a subjective issue.  Maybe you would argue that I (and all the other people who have a problem with this) have just been taught wrongly    But I think to say that a lot of people don't mind it doesn't necessarily make it good writing - they might just not be english freaks like some of us

It's a free game, so I'm not complaining - I think you guys did an amazing job.  But if I had paid for it I might have been a bit annoyed, so if you're releasing commercial games in the future, it might be something to keep in mind

[wilco64256]

Not to directly compare our writing to his, but Ernest Hemingway would disagree that wordy writing is automatically bad.

[Lambonius]

Not to directly compare our writing to his, but Ernest Hemingway would disagree that wordy writing is automatically bad.

   This is actually exactly the opposite of the truth.  Hemingway started his career writing short stories--and constantly spoke of the beauty of brevity in good prose.  He often talked about how truly great writers could say the most with the least words.

[Cat1]

I agree with Lambonius.  Hemingway considered this sad little piece to be his best work: "For sale: baby shoes, never worn."

Also I think we might be taking "wordy" to mean two different things.  I'm talking about the use of redundant words within sentences.  Hemingway's occasional "wordiness" that people talk about wasn't in his use of specific words/sentences, but in dwelling on a seemingly irrelevant topic in order to convey a hidden deeper meaning - e.g. see p. 55 of this book (available on google books):  Ernest Hemingway's The old man and the sea By Jim Auer, Ernest Hemingway.

[wilco64256]

And yet the stuff he's the most well-known for is anything but concise or to the point.  He often rephrased the exact same concept in the same paragraph (or even the same sentence) several different ways and was loved for it.