KQ2+ and The Father

[sahara]

But don't tell me that KQ2+ was respectful of the source material because it wasn't.  

I think you're wrong, but perhaps you just have a different idea of what it means to "respect" source material.  KQ2+ was perfectly respectful of the original game, in the sense that it never pretended to be a perfectly faithful recreation of the original.  AGDI was very upfront about the purpose of the game and the fact that it was to have new material.  KQ2+ had everything from the original KQ2 in it, but created new, imaginative storylines, adding a lot more drama and depth.  

To my earlier point, KQ2+'s narrator, the puzzle-driven gameplay and the game's many lighthearted moments were very much in keeping with the original KQ spirit.  I definitely cannot say the same for TSL, but it's still early, since only one short episode has been released.

[TheReturnofDMD]

You know the KQ9 thing went away a long time ago and a lot has changed in the game since then, and how do you reconcile your statement that this game departed from the series by being a new and darker take with And, by the way, I think AGDI's KQ2 is, in general, more in keeping with the original KQ spirit than TSL Episode 1.

That rebuild of KQ2 is FAR darker than anything episode 1 of TSL even came close to.

I'm just wondering how you felt KQ2VGA, which added a ton of new characters and locations and majorly changed the story of that game, kept the spirit of King's Quest games better than TSL, which uses characters that Sierra already gave us and follows the story where it naturally would go?

There's two kindness of ''darkness''--There's simply 'darkness'' and then there's ''angst.''
KQ2+ and KQ6 and KQ4 were dark--In the suspenseful, or even horror type sense, but were never angsty.
Cesar himself has stated the ''teenage fantasy model'' is the model that TSL is founded on rather than the ''storybook model'' of the previous games. The tone of Episode I is very teenage angst, which seems askew in a King's Quest game.

[Baggins]

KQ2+ had everything from the original KQ2 in it, but created new, imaginative storylines, adding a lot more drama and depth. 

I'll have to disagree on this, it actually is missing several things from the original (including two characters from the original), and the fact it switched the characterizations of the vampire and monk, makes it completely different from the original...

[Fierce Deity]

KQ2+ had everything from the original KQ2 in it, but created new, imaginative storylines, adding a lot more drama and depth. 

I'll have to disagree on this, it actually is missing several things from the original (including two characters from the original), and the fact it switched the characterizations of the vampire and monk, makes it completely different from the original...

I agree that the KQ2 remake was different from the original, but at the same token, I liked the emphasis it had on the actual plot. Hagatha played a bigger part in the remake than she did in the original. There was even a note in the remake that foreshadowed Manannan's role in the series. Then there was The Father, who I think is actually Shadrack. So while the remake sacrificed its integrity to the original KQ2, it added so many improvements that I think more than made up for it.

[Lambonius]

Just for the record, POS has stated numerous times that the storyline of KQ2+ will have absolutely no connection to the storyline of TSL.  They don't recognize the Father storyline as part of the canon, and so the characters won't end up being connected as you suggest (The Father = Shadrack.)  As far as TSL is concerned KQ2 happened as it did in the original version, so no "Father" story elements. 

[oberonqa]

KQ2+ had everything from the original KQ2 in it, but created new, imaginative storylines, adding a lot more drama and depth. 

I'll have to disagree on this, it actually is missing several things from the original (including two characters from the original), and the fact it switched the characterizations of the vampire and monk, makes it completely different from the original...

I agree that the KQ2 remake was different from the original, but at the same token, I liked the emphasis it had on the actual plot. Hagatha played a bigger part in the remake than she did in the original. There was even a note in the remake that foreshadowed Manannan's role in the series. Then there was The Father, who I think is actually Shadrack. So while the remake sacrificed its integrity to the original KQ2, it added so many improvements that I think more than made up for it.

Oh most definitely.  The changes AGDI brought into KQ2 made it a much better game as far as I am concerned.  But there's a big difference between enjoying the changes and saying the game was true to the source material.  I enjoyed the game a great deal (and continue to enjoy it every so often when I get a hankering to play through the KQ remakes) but that doesn't mean I feel the game was true to the source material.  A great game it may be.... but it's not KQ2 redone in VGA graphics.  I think it's naming as KQ2+ is very deliberate and actually very fitting (I also like the subtitle "Romancing the Stones".... but then I also am an 80's movie fanatic and got a kick out of the reference AGDI was making.)

[Fierce Deity]

Just for the record, POS has stated numerous times that the storyline of KQ2+ will have absolutely no connection to the storyline of TSL.  They don't recognize the Father storyline as part of the canon, and so the characters won't end up being connected as you suggest (The Father = Shadrack.)  As far as TSL is concerned KQ2 happened as it did in the original version, so no "Father" story elements. 

I know that TSL is sticking to the canon story, but Shadrack was mentioned in KQ6, so who's to say AGDI wasn't making it's own vision of Shadrack? Since The Father was both Hagatha's and Manannan's "leader", and Manannnan is one of the Black Cloaks (I think), I speculated that The Father was Shadrack. I would prefer TSL stick to the canon story, but Shadrack was the most mysterious and vague character in the series (seeing as he was only mentioned once in a letter), so he's fair game for fanmade projects.

[crayauchtin]

In KQ6, Shadrack is referred to as a "brother".

Besides, AGDI knows who the Father is. There's a book about him in the library in Kolyma. (It was discussed on the forums, so if you didn't make the connection in the game, search their forums and they spell it out for ya!)

[Lambonius]

Just for the record, POS has stated numerous times that the storyline of KQ2+ will have absolutely no connection to the storyline of TSL.  They don't recognize the Father storyline as part of the canon, and so the characters won't end up being connected as you suggest (The Father = Shadrack.)  As far as TSL is concerned KQ2 happened as it did in the original version, so no "Father" story elements. 

I know that TSL is sticking to the canon story, but Shadrack was mentioned in KQ6, so who's to say AGDI wasn't making it's own vision of Shadrack? Since The Father was both Hagatha's and Manannan's "leader", and Manannnan is one of the Black Cloaks (I think), I speculated that The Father was Shadrack. I would prefer TSL stick to the canon story, but Shadrack was the most mysterious and vague character in the series (seeing as he was only mentioned once in a letter), so he's fair game for fanmade projects.

Fair enough.  It's a reasonable interpretation.  But yeah, as crayauchtin said, they have named the Father before, so it's technically a moot point. 

[Fierce Deity]

In KQ6, Shadrack is referred to as a "brother".

Besides, AGDI knows who the Father is. There's a book about him in the library in Kolyma. (It was discussed on the forums, so if you didn't make the connection in the game, search their forums and they spell it out for ya!)

I just realized we were discussing the same topic (The Father's identity) in both General and Fan Feedback forums. I got who The Father is now (Morgeilen). But speculation is still possible because even AGDI said that Morgeilen took on different forms. As long as most of the info about the Black Cloaks is non-canonical (cause that seems to be the case), then the speculation can be limitless. 

[KatieHal]

I won't jump into the larger matters of this discussion, but I do want to clarify the name of the game thing.

Waaay back in the day, pre-Vivendi C&D, the project was called "The Unofficial King's Quest IX: Every Cloak Has a Silver Lining." We NEVER claimed it was official. Following the first C&D it became simply "The Silver Lining" and was noted as being "based on and inspired by the King's Quest series." We were asked to completely remove King's Quest from the title and we did. That hasn't been a part of the title at all since 2005 when we came back from that C&D. We never refer to our game as being an official KQ game, and take steps to make sure media outlets don't either when such instances come to our attention. It is obviously inspired by and based on the series, and we don't deny that (not that we could even if we wanted to! ).

[Baggins]

The Unofficial King's Quest IX: Every Cloak Has a Silver Lining."

Oh, come on, we can turn back the clock...

I'll accept you probably said the game was unofficial at the time (you clearly wouldn't have claimed it was "official"), but the name you had on your website was; "King's Quest IX: Every Cloak has a Silver Lining" (no "Unofficial" in the title). I'm not criticizing you for that, just stating the truth on the matter :p.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020601095550/http://www.kq9.org/

As can be seen clearly on that very early version of the site, you named it "King's Quest IX: Everly Cloak has a Silver Lining"

http://web.archive.org/web/20020601151411/www.kq9.org/cgi-bin/home.cgi

You later reduced that to KQIX: Every Cloak has a Silver Lining.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050213004002/www.kq9.org/

You also changed the website to KQIX.com.

Then finally to the The Silver Lining, after the C & D.

[Goldenfoxx]

The Unofficial King's Quest IX: Every Cloak Has a Silver Lining."

Oh, come on, we can turn back the clock...

There's a big difference between what was initially intended and what came to be.  Of course it's a KQ-inspired game (that's GRAHAM and family there, not some nameless adventurer)...  But just putting KQ9 on the front of it doesn't instantly make it part of official canon (and dear Lord, are we actually talking about King's Quest canon now?!). 

[Baggins]

Did you even read my post? I said I'm not criticizing their name, nor did I say they said the game was "canon", I even acknowledged that they likely said the game was unofficial.  I'm just showing the facts about it, that they never named the game the "The Unofficial King's Quest IX: Every Cloak has a Silver Lining". Besides that would have been a rather silly name don't you think?

[Goldenfoxx]

Baggins,

Yes, I read this entire thread before posting.   Was not intending to insult you or your comments.  Only saying that just calling it "King's Quest IX" doesn't MAKE it Kings Quest IX.  There must be a hundred fan-fics out there which also call themselves King's Quest IX.  If I'm misunderstanding your point, I do apologize. 

[Baggins]

K, that clears it up. Ya, I know of at least one other fan fic that is called King's Quest IX.

[crayauchtin]

Even though the Father is supposed to take on many forms, I think his having a form that is a brother in his organization is probably a bit far-fetched. I think if you want to make the TSL storyline work with the KQ2+ storyline (which, we'll really have to wait to the end of episode 5 to see) I think it's going to take a *great* deal of creative finagling. Not that I won't try when we get there (I will, I always do )

At the moment I'm thinking.... in the few picture we have, Shadrack looks kind of like a nosferatu -- perhaps he's a vampire and he killed the Father by draining him of his blood and therefore his power? *shrugs* I'm just making things up now though.

[Fierce Deity]

Even though the Father is supposed to take on many forms, I think his having a form that is a brother in his organization is probably a bit far-fetched.

Not really taking a form of his brother in the organization, just simply taking on the name Shadrack. They say his name was Morgeilen and that was his name from birth (his name being an anagram of his brother, Legenimor the 1st King of Daventry). Shadrack (Shade) could just be a name that signifies his past or future. I would look at it as an alias of the same person, not so much having to transform into a subordinate in his own organization.   

[Baggins]

Could someone ask Erpy what their intent was? So we can stop debating?

[Erpy]

Morgeilen en Shadrack were meant to be different people. Not alternate forms.

KQ2+ was never meant to be anything other than a "retelling", or a fanfic with a soundtrack and an interface attached to it. AGD2 even mentioned on the forums he'd probably have kept the game more 1:1 if he had known Vivendi was gonna grant us official permission so people wouldn't get the idea we were trying to create an alternative canon. (I'm personally happy that didn't happen)

I wouldn't try to connect KQ2+ and TSL. It's kinda like trying to construct a logical timeline out of all the Zelda games.