KQ2+ and The Father

[Fierce Deity]

I wouldn't try to connect KQ2+ and TSL. It's kinda like trying to construct a logical timeline out of all the Zelda games.

Which people do all the time on Zelda forums. That's why I don't mind discussing KQ fanfic relations. But if you insist we stop the discussion, I'm willing to drop it.

[wilco64256]

The sad thing there is that all of the Zelda games were made by the same company, while KQ2+ and TSL are made by different fan groups.

[crayauchtin]

Not really taking a form of his brother in the organization, just simply taking on the name Shadrack. They say his name was Morgeilen and that was his name from birth (his name being an anagram of his brother, Legenimor the 1st King of Daventry). Shadrack (Shade) could just be a name that signifies his past or future. I would look at it as an alias of the same person, not so much having to transform into a subordinate in his own organization.   

See, that would be my theory as well except Alhazred's letter refers to Shadrack as a brother in the organization.

Erpy -- I wouldn't be trying to connect them in an "official" or even semi-official sense, more to make it work in my own "personal canon". I mean, that's not to say I treat the remake as canon or expect that anyone else would but in my opinion it's a much better story and so in my "personal canon", it takes precedent. My personal canon happens to be rather detailed  (and even takes some creative liberties of my own invention), as I'm sure other people's do as well. I'm willing to bet you can't find two King's Quest fans who interpret the King's Quest universe exactly the same way and that is part of the beauty of the series.

I know that some of us are sticklers for the original canon (here's looking at you Baggins! ) but there are gaps and inconsistencies there* which allow us to sort of make our own versions of the universe for our own imaginations.

Anyways, point being, when I said I'd try to connect them I didn't mean I was going to try passing it off as official or even as semi-official. I may not even share what I come up with.

*(However, I'm sure Baggins will also agree with me when I say there's a lot fewer gaps and inconsistencies with King's Quest than there are with Quest for Glory!! How about that timeline, Baggins? And certainly fewer than the Zelda games!!)

[wilco64256]

Oh don't even get me started on the Quest for Glory plot issues.  That was a really fun game series, and I loved how you could port your character through each game, but the plot and backstories were so freaking scatterbrained.

[Baggins]

Thank you Erpy for the behind the scenes details. Guess this also means he isn't Lucreto either.

I guess it means  and that the prophecy of Acension mentioned in the library book to be set about 30 years after the game has nothing to do with Mask of Eternity? ...or is there still some connection there?

I've corrected the King's Quest Omnipedia with your new information. Please take a look at the article for Morgeilen and let me know if there is anything else that should be fixed. Thanks.

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Morgeilen#Behind_the_scenes

I know that some of us are sticklers for the original canon (here's looking at you Baggins! ) but there are gaps and inconsistencies there* which allow us to sort of make our own versions of the universe for our own imaginations.

Since I'm one of the admins at King's Quest Omnipedia, I try keep things neutral there, and avoid the whole canon debate personally. I do point out where the things dont' match up though, but more or less treat both cosmology's as equal.

*(However, I'm sure Baggins will also agree with me when I say there's a lot fewer gaps and inconsistencies with King's Quest than there are with Quest for Glory!! How about that timeline, Baggins?  And certainly fewer than the Zelda games!!)

You mean like how there are two official timelines that the Cole's inadvertantely created?

King's quest is just as bad, there is at least two timelines as well (surrounding some sources that follow the KQ4 manual, and some that follow Roberta's KQ5 Hintbook retcon) :p, plus a bunch of seasonal and month references that don't always match up...

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Official_King%27s_Quest_Timeline

Check both the main article, and the talk page.

The Police Quest timeline is pretty shambled too... since its basically restarted itself several times ;p....

[KatieHal]

I split this from its previous thread since it was quite different in topic. I'll be moving it into off-topic shortly as well.

[Erpy]

No, The Father isn't Lucreto either. He's a completely new character.

[Baggins]

Thank you Erpy, unfortunately that later bit about the compass and item isn't really all that clear in the game, LOL.

I didn't come accross anything would have suggested they were two different things... You get message about the Item from one of the books, and then The Father is hunting after the crown. Which unless I missed something would make them seem one and the same. Maybe I missed a message somewhere that referred to both the crown and the item and differentiated them?

I'll work on updating the article, feel welcome to edit it further if you like.

[B'rrr]

Baggins!

I am your Father...

[Baggins]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Erpy]

Actually, it is made clear that the crown and the Item are two different things. During the second conversation between Hagatha and The Father, the latter's response to Hagatha's inquiry why he didn't deal with Graham personally is: "FOOL! Imagine the ensuing chaos, were Daventry's king murdered in his own land! How then would I be able to search for the Item?"

[Baggins]

It's a bit of a shame you can't make a sequel, covering the time, The Father prophesied that Graham would be searching him out, as well as the Acension mentioned during the story. I would be interested to know what your plans were for that event. What kind of backstory you had created for that event.

[PoweroftheFans81]

I agree with Baggins, I'd love to see the rest of the "Father story" told in some form

[Baggins]

Hell, there might even be a way to disconnect it from the royal family of Daventry in some way (perhaps he finds a alternate way to locate "the Item"), and we followed a different hero trying to stop him.

That way you could avoid making it a direct "King's Quest" game and potentially set it in another part of the world in some way? Perhaps somehow avoid using any actual King's Quest characters you could avoid actually getting another C & D tossed at you.

Perhaps find ways to indirectly nod back to King's Quest and the previous game, and even King Graham, but without literally using the character (for example referring to him as the "King, who was a thorn in Morgelein's side").

[crayauchtin]

Baggins, I thought you knew I'm Grahamburger on Wikia. I also try to keep things neutral (although as you've seen , mostly on the QfG Omnipedia, sometimes my personal canon gets confused with the actual canon when there's not enough information! ) I think our canon policies on the Omnipedias are very sturdy, particularly given the gray areas we have to work with!

In my personal canon I've created (and this is one of the things that is based on absolutely nothing) I have an elaborate theory on the Item (which involves Morgelein being rather misinformed which is why he's having so much trouble! )
And, no, I'm not sharing what that is at this particular time.

I think the KQ timeline isn't *just* as bad -- at least they all agree that several years are covered throughout the whole series.

EDIT: Oh, while we're on the topic -- I'd always assumed the Ancients from KQ2+ were the same Ancient Ones from KQ6 who were also, presumably, the same as the ancient race from MoE. Anyone else thinking this?

[Baggins]

Cool, Grahamburger, no I had no idea . BTW, he's one of my admins . Thanks for the help btw.

I think the KQ timeline isn't *just* as bad -- at least they all agree that several years are covered throughout the whole series.

Well its two timeline versions probably are slightly more in line with each other than the two Quest for Glory timelines. Events are off by a few months to a year or two at the most. So you your opinion is fair...

Even the two cosmologies of the companion and earth's past aren't terrible difficult to reconcile if time travel is involved. On a side note time travel is actually mentioned in one of the editions of the companion as a reason why Rumplestiltskin in KQ5 didn't seem to remember him (although Graham, seems to remember the gnome in the companion). From Rumple's perspective KQ5 was the first time he met Graham, and then afterwords he somehow traveled back in time and met Graham again in KQ1, and offered help. It also adds a new perspective to why he might be spelling his name "backwards", since he traveled backwards in time. Then again the alternate theory is maybe its just one of Rumpy's close relatives.

Generally speaking the overal storyline between the Companions and the games are fairly consistent besides a few character name changes or what not.

In the case of Quest for Glory in some cases events are off by years or even decades.

Oh, while we're on the topic -- I'd always assumed the Ancients from KQ2+ were the same Ancient Ones from KQ6 who were also, presumably, the same as the ancient race from MoE. Anyone else thinking this?

As for the ancients, ya I personally think that the ones MOE and the ones mentioned in KQ6 are probably the same. Its not specifically stated, but its not denied either.

You know personally treat KQ2+ outside of the realms of discussion (beyond speculating about it as its own alternate universe), due to the fact I prefer the original and KQ2 and Companion novel of the story, and the two really don't overlap.

[crayauchtin]

On a side note time travel is actually mentioned in one of the editions of the companion as a reason why Rumplestiltskin in KQ5 didn't seem to remember him (although Graham, seems to remember the gnome in the companion). From Rumple's perspective KQ5 was the first time he met Graham, and then afterwords he somehow traveled back in time and met Graham again in KQ1, and offered help. It also adds a new perspective to why he might be spelling his name "backwards", since he traveled backwards in time. Then again the alternate theory is maybe its just one of Rumpy's close relatives.

I always liked the theory that it was a relative. The whole thing seems so "I'm stretching it because I'd like to think KQ isn't totally recycling fairy tales" if they're the same person, kind of a stretch.

As for the ancients, ya I personally think that the ones MOE and the ones mentioned in KQ6 are probably the same. Its not specifically stated, but its not denied either.

It seems odd that there'd be that many mysterious ancient cultures on the same world.

You know personally treat KQ2+ outside of the realms of discussion (beyond speculating about it as its own alternate universe), due to the fact I prefer the original and KQ2 and Companion novel of the story, and the two really don't overlap.

No, they don't overlap at all!! Which KQ you like more is part of where everyone's personal canon comes in to play, although there's no denying that the original is the actual canon.

[Baggins]

I always liked the theory that it was a relative. The whole thing seems so "I'm stretching it because I'd like to think KQ isn't totally recycling fairy tales" if they're the same person, kind of a stretch.

The relative, being allowed to borrow the great treasure, the magic spindle is also silly in its own way. :p

Although with the Ancients and the Ancient Ones, one seems to enjoy living high on the mountains, and burying there dead underground, and the other apparently loves living Underground under the mountains. :p...

[Jafar]

I figured spinning straw into gold is just something most Gnomes know how to do.

[Baggins]

Well I wouldn't say all gnomes . That's stereotyping you racist you.

But ya in KQ5 we are told that it is the famous and legendary magic spindle that turns straw into gold, when you return it to the gnome.