Author Topic: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video  (Read 10058 times)

Offline Baggins

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2010, 04:49:30 PM »
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unless, and I only JUST thought of this theory for whatever reason, all three of the treasures stopped working when Alexander was kidnapped. Oh. My. God! That just solved a plot hole in the fanfic/Companion I'm starting to write. I'm a freaking genius!

Yes, that's one of my theories as well... I mean it would explain alot of things, including why they were worried about running out of gold in See No Weevil.
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Offline Jafar

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2010, 08:25:32 PM »
And someone reading said print in a total panic as the shield starts melting.
Funny thing is, the shield actually DOES melt if you bring it to the dragon in KQ1. :P
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Offline GwydionAE

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2010, 11:05:46 PM »
I actually have to agree about Alexander being Graham's biggest "failure".  To those of us playing the games it might not be, but try thinking of it from a parent's perspective.  As Alexander's father, you'd think that being unable to save his son while having done so many other great things (even before the games he was Daventry's best knight) would be seen - to him, at least - a failure.
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Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2010, 04:47:24 AM »
I actually have to agree about Alexander being Graham's biggest "failure".  To those of us playing the games it might not be, but try thinking of it from a parent's perspective.  As Alexander's father, you'd think that being unable to save his son while having done so many other great things (even before the games he was Daventry's best knight) would be seen - to him, at least - a failure.

I don't see how considering it to be a failure is constructive. If I were a parent, and I lost my son, and tried as I might, I couldn't find him. I think I would be showing more care and be grateful that he arrived home okay. I would like to think, "he's finally home", rather then "this is going to hurt my perfect adventuring record". The only reason I find the word "failure" to be an inaccurate metaphor for Graham's and Alexander's relationship is cause I can't detect any animosity between them.

Alexander grew up under the tutelage of a dark wizard that was going to eventually sever him from the living world but was willing to let him live so as to finish the chores in the house. Alexander being the heir to the kingdom of Daventry is comparable to winning a lottery ticket. From where Alexander was standing (over Manannan's kitty-self), he could have everything he wanted, a family, a home, a real father, the glamorous lifestyle, etc. I don't see how Alexander would hold a grudge if he wanted to fit in with these people.

Also, Graham was in a very dark time with the kingdom of Daventry being in the wreck that it was. Would Graham truly feel guilty over something that couldn't be stopped almost 2 decades ago? As Alexander comes into Castle Daventry with Rosella at his side and the dragon's three heads dangling in his arms, would Graham ponder, "He is my only failure", or would he think "This is my son!". So Alexander would get the family and home he always wanted, and Graham gets the son to pass his adventurer's cap on to. Saying Alexander was Graham's "failure" is so pessimistic, I'd rather think of Alexander being a "missing piece" to Graham's metaphorical puzzle (which is his complicated life). 
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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2010, 06:32:14 AM »
Of course it's not a constructive thought; but it's an emotional one, and a depressing one at that, so it's not really going to be.

I think you may be thinking of this not quite in the way they meant. Alexander himself isn't Graham's greatest failure--losing him and never being able to recover him is. Of course when Alex returned he'd be overjoyed! But the idea they're talking about is that while Graham was able to save his kingdom and his wife, he was never able to recover their son no matter what he tried. He failed to do that, and as a good and loving father, his instinct of course would be to protect his children at all costs. But he couldn't do that in this case.

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Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2010, 08:47:04 AM »
Of course it's not a constructive thought; but it's an emotional one, and a depressing one at that, so it's not really going to be.

I think you may be thinking of this not quite in the way they meant. Alexander himself isn't Graham's greatest failure--losing him and never being able to recover him is. Of course when Alex returned he'd be overjoyed! But the idea they're talking about is that while Graham was able to save his kingdom and his wife, he was never able to recover their son no matter what he tried. He failed to do that, and as a good and loving father, his instinct of course would be to protect his children at all costs. But he couldn't do that in this case.

Oh, I understand that. I just don't think it'd be a lasting effect. The fact that Alexander was able to come back to Daventry on his own, and slay the three headed dragon would make a father proud. So the "I'm a failure for losing my son" wouldn't be a long-lasting emotion, I would think. I understand the reasoning behind what they're saying, I just don't agree with it.

Also, there were many things that Graham wasn't able to do. He couldn't prevent his family from being kidnapped by Mordack, he wasn't able to save Daventry from Lucreto, he couldn't save Alexander and Rosella from Shadrack. But regardless of these events, Graham seems to overcome and succeed. So there were many "failures", but it doesn't sound right to call them failures when Graham didn't do anything in the first place to deserve the treatment. Like I said earlier, it's just an organization of dark wizards hellbent on pissing him off. 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 09:03:21 AM by Fierce Deity »
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2010, 09:00:02 AM »
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Funny thing is, the shield actually DOES melt if you bring it to the dragon in KQ1.
It does? That's the original KQ1 I'm reckoning (the shield is the last item you get in the remake)? Hmm need to try it out.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2010, 03:13:03 PM »
Oh, I understand that. I just don't think it'd be a lasting effect. The fact that Alexander was able to come back to Daventry on his own, and slay the three headed dragon would make a father proud. So the "I'm a failure for losing my son" wouldn't be a long-lasting emotion, I would think. I understand the reasoning behind what they're saying, I just don't agree with it.
People are incapable of having multiple emotions?
Graham could view his inability to find/rescue Alexander as a failure, and yet be proud of his son for his accomplishments. And I don't know that there would be animosity either (as you said, there isn't any): Graham's emotional feelings of failure wouldn't have any effect on Alexander's view of him. No doubt, Alexander understands -- he only found out from an oracle in Llewdor. How is Graham supposed to accomplish that? I'm sure Alexander isn't happy that he wasn't saved, but I don't think he would blame anyone except Manannan for that.

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Also, there were many things that Graham wasn't able to do. He couldn't prevent his family from being kidnapped by Mordack, he wasn't able to save Daventry from Lucreto, he couldn't save Alexander and Rosella from Shadrack. But regardless of these events, Graham seems to overcome and succeed. So there were many "failures", but it doesn't sound right to call them failures when Graham didn't do anything in the first place to deserve the treatment. Like I said earlier, it's just an organization of dark wizards hellbent on pissing him off.
You seem to be misunderstanding. *We* are not saying Graham is a failure. We are saying, Graham -- in his own mind -- likely views it as a failure. He's always been able to rectify the problem (excepting the Lucreto incident, but Connor did it and Graham was encased in stone, so I think it's fair to say he's not taking that one too personally, other than showering Connor with gratitude).
However, his son, his heir was kidnapped and he never found him. Emotionally, that takes a toll. It takes a further toll when said son returns on his own after a traumatic life. No, there's no animosity. Yes, Graham can still be proud of Alexander. But it's just silly to think he just shoved it aside as a "oh whatever" that he didn't save Alexander.
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Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2010, 06:20:23 PM »
People are incapable of having multiple emotions?
Graham could view his inability to find/rescue Alexander as a failure, and yet be proud of his son for his accomplishments. And I don't know that there would be animosity either (as you said, there isn't any): Graham's emotional feelings of failure wouldn't have any effect on Alexander's view of him. No doubt, Alexander understands -- he only found out from an oracle in Llewdor. How is Graham supposed to accomplish that? I'm sure Alexander isn't happy that he wasn't saved, but I don't think he would blame anyone except Manannan for that.

I wouldn't say he would be incapable of feeling multiple emotions, I just think the overall thought of him losing Alexander would be somehow redeemed through the time he spent with him. Not to say the thought wouldn't linger in his mind, but that he may one day forgive himself. I see your point. I agree with everything you said. I think I just have to chalk it up to the terminology of "failure". I don't think it would be a failure if he redeemed himself.

You seem to be misunderstanding. *We* are not saying Graham is a failure. We are saying, Graham -- in his own mind -- likely views it as a failure. He's always been able to rectify the problem (excepting the Lucreto incident, but Connor did it and Graham was encased in stone, so I think it's fair to say he's not taking that one too personally, other than showering Connor with gratitude).
However, his son, his heir was kidnapped and he never found him. Emotionally, that takes a toll. It takes a further toll when said son returns on his own after a traumatic life. No, there's no animosity. Yes, Graham can still be proud of Alexander. But it's just silly to think he just shoved it aside as a "oh whatever" that he didn't save Alexander.

Graham may see it in his own mind as a failure, but I wouldn't be one to debate the psychology of a fictional character. So I'll agree with you for the benefit of the doubt. Like I said, I had a misunderstanding of how the word "failure" was being used. I don't think Graham is made out of stone (no pun intended for the MoE reference). I wouldn't think that Graham would ignore the fact that Alexander was kidnapped either, I just wouldn't think it a positive mindset to constantly burden himself with the thought. But I get what you're saying.     
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Offline Rosella

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2010, 09:37:46 PM »
I wouldn't think that Graham would ignore the fact that Alexander was kidnapped either, I just wouldn't think it a positive mindset to constantly burden himself with the thought. But I get what you're saying.     

That's really a wonderfully positive outlook to have. Obviously, Graham was heartbroken to have his son stolen from him, but probably, Graham, tasked with ruling the kingdom and such, would be forced at some point to adopt such an outlook to just get through the day (How long do you think you could go on thinking, erroneously or not, that your son was kidnapped and may be dead, and it's all because you couldn't save him? I mean, truly, think of all of the suffering you would have to go through, or worse, that your beloved wife would have to go through...) And of course, once you son came back, it would be the most wonderful day of your life, but that doesn't mean that, in the darkest times of your life, your mind wouldn't go back to that mindset, that you could ignore that voice in your head saying "You couldn't save him once, what makes you think you could do it now?"
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Offline colin

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2010, 10:43:05 PM »
Yes graham must be mentally upset about not being able to save alexander. But of course think about all the people in daventry that were killed by the three headed dragon. The sacrifices every year and to top it off his
daughter was about to be sacrificed as well. Yes rosella survived but the dragon must still be also in the back of  graham's mind.

Offline GwydionAE

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2010, 03:06:53 AM »
I wouldn't say he would be incapable of feeling multiple emotions, I just think the overall thought of him losing Alexander would be somehow redeemed through the time he spent with him. Not to say the thought wouldn't linger in his mind, but that he may one day forgive himself.
I agree that perhaps one day he might forgive himself.  But I think that - in the context of TSL - he wouldn't be able to just yet.  I would think that seeing his son who he couldn't save before lying there helpless would remind him of when he couldn't save him before and cause him to maybe doubt himself just a bit - not that he wouldn't be focused on doing everything he could while trying to ignore that, of course.  But it seems like both Graham and Alexander (and Rosella, of course!) in some way have to overcome Shadrack/the spell/the prophecy/etc, so perhaps going through that experience, helping his son as well as actually witnessing Alexander "in action", could help Graham come to terms with it.
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Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2010, 06:19:43 AM »
I agree that perhaps one day he might forgive himself.  But I think that - in the context of TSL - he wouldn't be able to just yet.  I would think that seeing his son who he couldn't save before lying there helpless would remind him of when he couldn't save him before and cause him to maybe doubt himself just a bit - not that he wouldn't be focused on doing everything he could while trying to ignore that, of course.  But it seems like both Graham and Alexander (and Rosella, of course!) in some way have to overcome Shadrack/the spell/the prophecy/etc, so perhaps going through that experience, helping his son as well as actually witnessing Alexander "in action", could help Graham come to terms with it.

I can agree with that. I understand the emotions he must be going through, but he never let anything get in the way of his duty as a King, as well as a father. So the doubt he would be feeling won't prevent him from trying to save his child. After all, he left his kids behind at the castle so he could go save them. That was a risk he was willing to take. So emotions play a big part, but Graham controls the emotions, so he can see what is truly important. It must be the courage he has developed from every one of his adventures. But I can guarantee that Graham will come to terms with the situation once he sees both of his children in action. Shadrack's got nothing on the royal family.  :P 
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Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2010, 12:54:20 PM »
I would say, during the dragon's attack on Daventry especially, it's likely that Graham repressed the emotions and adopted a positive outlook to do his duty as best as he could. But adopting a positive outlook doesn't necessarily indicate what's going on underneath the surface. Sometimes things happen that bring those feelings right back up despite one's best efforts -- the return of Alexander (as happy as it was) was probably one of those moments. The re-kidnapping of his entire family (although, as per usual, Graham swallows it all down and does his duty!), Alexander's presumed death at the beginning of KQ6 (remember, the crew (miraculously) made it home without Alex) and then, in TSL, the curse on his children. At this point, it's probably wearing away on Graham's psyche, trying to keep so much emotion bottled up.
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Offline Damar

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2010, 05:58:59 PM »
I always felt that the final part of Kings Quest III in Daventry was one of the darker parts of Kings Quest and implies serious damage to Graham's psyche.  I mean here's a character who was always charging into impossible situations, trying to make things right, and would succeed (granted it's because we were playing him) yet at the final parts of Kings Quest III we see that Graham is a broken man.  He's locked up in the castle, the moat is drained, the whole countryside is in disarray, and the people of Daventry are being eaten as sacrifices.  We don't see Graham leading armies against the dragon, we don't see him questing to save the dragon himself.  He's locked up in the castle and he's a beaten man.

And don't get me wrong, that's nothing against Graham.  Alexander was 18 years old when he finally got home.  He was kidnapped after he was born and the dragon showed up not long afterwards.  So Graham had well over a decade of seeing the atrocities of the dragon, to say nothing of the personal grief of losing his only son.  And he probably did lead an army (unsuccessfully) against the dragon so he'd basically start seeing himself as an impotent leader in an occupied country.  Anyone would be broken after that.  And even after Alexander returned, he decided he was through adventuring and passed his hat on to his kids.  I think you could argue that the magic fruit Rosella got probably healed his mind just as much as his body.  It's a darker part of Graham we don't see much of.

Offline Allronix

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2010, 11:32:36 AM »
Good point, and it's one of the reasons I thought the AGD was "Better than Canon." The Air Gem tests actually touch on that. Here's Graham at his darkest hour; Alex is gone, Rosella has been sent to sacrifice, Daventry is in ashes and the Big Bad shows up to gloat. The highest-scoring ("in character") option is telling the guy to go to hell.   

Infamous Adventures also touched on it in their KQ3 remake, but not as deeply. They show a scene of Rosella being led to sacrifice as the vision the Llewdor oracle shows Alexander-Gwydion. The final shot is of Graham, alone, on his knees with grief.

I realize they aren't Sierra canon, but I still can't see things playing out any other way.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2010, 12:15:04 PM »
Infamous Adventures also touched on it in their KQ3 remake, but not as deeply. They show a scene of Rosella being led to sacrifice as the vision the Llewdor oracle shows Alexander-Gwydion. The final shot is of Graham, alone, on his knees with grief.

I realize they aren't Sierra canon, but I still can't see things playing out any other way.

We have plans to fill in some of this story in Kingdom of Sorrow as well--there are spots here and there throughout the main story that allude to the dragon and other such things, though it's not really part of the main plot.  :)

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2010, 02:48:09 PM »
What I liked from the KQ3 remake was when Alex is returning to the castle, and Rose is filling him in on what he missed. She had said that Graham looked high and low for Alex, but to no avail. Although it's not canon, it shows that Graham was persistent in finding his son, despite losing the power of the Magic Mirror. Also, Graham and Alex were catching up with each other, and Alex was gloating about killing ole' Three Heads, and Graham was like, "When I was your age, I slayed a dragon as well (but it didn't have three heads)".

I liked AGDI's remakes a lot, but KQ3 was probably the best I think. It may just be because I'm a fan of Alex's character and background. I also can't wait to play Kingdom of Sorrow, and the remake of KQ4 (if Magic Mirror Games ever decides to release it).
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2010, 03:14:50 PM »
I liked AGDI's remakes a lot, but KQ3 was probably the best I think. It may just be because I'm a fan of Alex's character and background. I also can't wait to play Kingdom of Sorrow, and the remake of KQ4 (if Magic Mirror Games ever decides to release it).

I am SO excited about Kingdom of Sorrow.  Like giddy about it.  Lol.  I can't wait for people to see our work--it is so far beyond our KQ3 in terms of art, music, and cinematics--we've come up with some cool stuff, if I do say so myself.  Anyway--I shouldn't say too much more about it here or the guys will beat me.  :P  You will be in for a real treat though, I think.  It's a ways off though--so don't expect it anytime soon.  ;)

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Theories on the Ending Cryptic Video
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2010, 04:00:21 PM »
I'm also excited for KOS! Best of luck with your production process :)

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