Remaking MoE

[Baggins]

Well as Dreamfall has shown, there is the potential of making a game that has limited amounts of combat action, but contains plenty of areas with just plain old fashioned exploration. Basically she could have went a bit more old school in some areas, and punctuated the action, making them sequences scattered at different points of the game. Its all about balance .

Another cool bit in dreamfall is there is this one point in the game where you are sneaking through an underground cavern. You can fight these little cave troll things, or you can alternatively use rocks and other things to distract the trolls and sneak by them. So there are alternative ways to solving the area.

[TheReturnofDMD]

Well as Dreamfall has shown, there is the potential of making a game that has limited amounts of combat action, but contains plenty of areas with just plain old fashioned exploration. Basically she could have went a bit more old school in some areas, and punctuated the action, making them sequences scattered at different points of the game. Its all about balance .

Perhaps. To be honest, I think the 2.5D adventure game (even if it has action elements) is a little too restrictive. One of the things I love most about KQ8 is the fully 3D world. I think 2.5D is a thing of the past, in any genre. I used to be an adventure genre devotee, I just don't see why we can't take what made the Sierra games magical and put it into something more immersive--action/adventure. You can still have mind bending puzzles, beautiful music, colorful characters, exciting and mysterious worlds etc in an action/adveture game. Mask of Eternity, for me, proved that.

And that's what it breaks down to really. It all depends on what's more important to a person when playing the KQ series (or any video game series for that matter): What's more important? The content, or the gameplay? Essentially, the story, or the way the story is told? I think that KQ is a series so unique and special it could transcend the adventure genre. Even Ken, for example, never looked at adventures as this dogmatic sort of rigid template, but as a broad part of "interactive fiction." And I think a KQ game can work under any sort of gameplay mechanics if you retain the individuality of the series.

Just my opinion.

[Fierce Deity]

I think what disconnected MoE from the KQ series was not only the fact that it was not a point-and-click adventure game and the main character wasn't a part of the royal family (unlike the psyche-out that was Gwydion), but that it took place in a Daventry that was not familiar to the fanbase. Nobody knew about the Swamp, Underground Realm of the Gnomes, the Dimension of Death (which I assume is separate from the Realm of the Dead), or the Realm of the Sun from prior games. So the Archons, the Mask, Lucreto; it was news to everyone. So the fans were already disconnected from a place they would call 'home'. I would have liked to see Lucreto and the Archons in a prior game, cause MoE had a lot of potential. 

Yeah but every game had a totally new land. Who knew about Tamir before KQ4? Or Etheria before KQ7? Daventry in the KQ7 intro looks very little like any of the parts of Daventry we had seen previously. Each game introduced new realms and characters--I mean for example the BCS was never mentioned in a game before or after KQ6. The only exception was KQ5 which gave a brief mention of Alhazred, though he wasn't named.

I realize that new worlds were introduced, but the Realm of the Sun was hovering over Daventry, and nobody knew about it until KQ8. I think if they introduced the areas of Daventry prior to KQ8, it wouldn't have seemed like the premise of the game was built in the last minute. I liked the premise of MoE, but it was so complex (the idea of the Mask upholding order light, and truth) and the concept wasn't established until KQ8. It's more than just the areas that were introduced, it was the lore of Daventry. I think that's why people felt like KQ8 was disconnected from the series (on top of Connor being the protagonist and it being an action-RPG).

Don't get me wrong though, I also would've like to see Sierra take the series into that direction. I thought they had a good thing going for the series. It was just vastly different from what the fans of KQ were used to.

[Baggins]

Perhaps. To be honest, I think the 2.5D adventure game (even if it has action elements) is a little too restrictive. One of the things I love most about KQ8 is the fully 3D world. I think 2.5D is a thing of the past, in any genre. I used to be an adventure genre devotee, I just don't see why we can't take what made the Sierra games magical and put it into something more immersive--action/adventure. You can still have mind bending puzzles, beautiful music, colorful characters, exciting and mysterious worlds etc in an action/adveture game. Mask of Eternity, for me, proved that.

?. Dreamfall isn't 2.5 d it had full 3-d, you can rotate the camera completely around the character.

I realize that new worlds were introduced, but the Realm of the Sun was hovering over Daventry, and nobody knew about it until KQ8. I think if they introduced the areas of Daventry prior to KQ8,

Sure, the Land of the Clouds also hovers or looms over Daventry, blocking the view of the sky . Also as you see in later cutscene (when you travel there via Paradise Lost), the Realm of the Sun actually seems to be out in space possibly partially in its own dimension (sorta like the Realm of the Dead and Dimension of Death). It's suitably distant, that I don't think its something you can see from the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aZ4_VrS8Jk&feature=related

Also you get the impression Connor and Graham doesn't even know about the Realm of the Sun. Graham seems surprised what little he sees in the mirror. Connor learns about it from several knowledge individuals he encounters. Like that Wizard (and later a Unicorn), and multiple characters once he leaves Daventry. He seems to be truly surprised by the information. He didn't know what the Mask of Eternity was until the Wizard explained it to him.

It doesn't seem its something the average Human knows about, only certain mystics and magical beings. Although technically the realm of the Sun is also I think referred to as the "heavens" by one or two characters in the game. If you didn't know, the pawn shoppe owner in KQ6 also refers to the "heavens" as one one of his exclamations.

What do you mean by 'areas of Daventry'? As I mentioned previously only the first area is part of "Daventry", the "Kingdom of Daventry". Unless you meant part of the continent of Daventry?

[Fierce Deity]

Yeah, the continent of Daventry, not the Kingdom. I saw the map of the King's Quest universe on the Omnipedia. It showed Llewdor, Tamir, Land of the Green Isles, Kolyma, and Serenia. By looking at the map, it seemed like Serenia was also on the continent of Daventry. So I'm assuming the other areas of Daventry that aren't a part of the Kingdom or Serenia must be the Swamp, Underground Realm of Gnomes, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, I felt the lore of the Mask and the Archons didn't tie-in all that well. This Mask is supposed to be like a god, yet religion and faith in the Mask didn't appear in the series till KQ8. It seems like the entire story was an afterthought. That's why I would have liked to see it tied into the story sooner.

Also, I wasn't aware that the Realm of the Sun was supposed to be in space. By looking at the map on the loading screen, it looked like it was closer to the land.   

[Baggins]

Ya, the thing about maps they are somewhat exagerated (they don't list everything).

Actually there are supposed to be alot of lands on the continent of Daventry/Serenia (according to the Companion, and even the novels). The Kingdom of Daventry and Soverengnty of Serenia are just two of them. The novels actually introduced the Kingdom of Sorrow to the east, as well as Old Wood to the north and east, and surprisingly a swamp is mentioned to the north in The Floating Castle.

See No Weevil also mentions several other kingdoms on the continent.

Also back in KQ1 manual there is a nod to a possible land named Cumberland.

Also have you noticed how many times the maps for Daventry and its various lands have changed? Three times in the Companions alone :p...

Castle Daventry is placed somewhere close to the western shore of Daventry in first Companion (the maps were based on the continent maps in KQ3).

In 2nd edition and 3rd edition maps somewhere to middle to south-east of the continent (when Serenia reappeared).

It's back to the western shore in KQ8.

[TheReturnofDMD]

Yeah, the continent of Daventry, not the Kingdom. I saw the map of the King's Quest universe on the Omnipedia. It showed Llewdor, Tamir, Land of the Green Isles, Kolyma, and Serenia. By looking at the map, it seemed like Serenia was also on the continent of Daventry. So I'm assuming the other areas of Daventry that aren't a part of the Kingdom or Serenia must be the Swamp, Underground Realm of Gnomes, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, I felt the lore of the Mask and the Archons didn't tie-in all that well. This Mask is supposed to be like a god, yet religion and faith in the Mask didn't appear in the series till KQ8. It seems like the entire story was an afterthought. That's why I would have liked to see it tied into the story sooner.

Also, I wasn't aware that the Realm of the Sun was supposed to be in space. By looking at the map on the loading screen, it looked like it was closer to the land.   

If you notice, in KQ2 we visit a Church. We're never specifically told it's a Christian Church, outside of Graham receiving the Cross. The Mask, according to an interview by Roberta, isn't supposed to be any particular deity but a universal symbol of deity. And really, the concept of any sort of higher beings wasn't touched upon until KQ7--The fates are only mentioned in passing in KQ6 and then seen in KQ7. The question of deity and Daventry's lore was never explored or explored in any of the games until KQ8, so I wouldn't say the story is an afterthought; It's a revealation.

As for the land, the KQ companion also says that between Serenia and Daventry there are many kingdoms, which come and go almost daily--tiny fiefdoms, other lands, etc. And remember, with each game the world of Daventry grew. The map of Daventry you could say was from Derek's perspective. Look at a map of our world from the 1300s--the world will look like a much smaller place.

And there's other lands that aren't shown on any of the Companion maps, but are mentioned--for example Manticore. It's a kingdom somewhere in the world of Daventry, but it's never shown on any map.

As to KQ8's land, it takes place on mainly the coast of Daventry. I think the map is a metaphorical sort of map, or symbolic, because we're told in the manual that the Dimension of Death is not physically connected to Daventry, yet is shown on the map as being under it. With the map, you should look at the supernatural realms (Realm of the Sun, Dimension of Death) as being only symbolically on the map.

(Posted on: September 09, 2010, 02:58:36 AM)

Ya, the thing about maps they are somewhat exagerated (they don't list everything).

Actually there are supposed to be alot of lands on the continent of Daventry/Serenia (according to the Companion, and even the novels). The Kingdom of Daventry and Soverengnty of Serenia are just two of them. The novels actually introduced the Kingdom of Sorrow to the east, as well as Old Wood to the north and east, and surprisingly a swamp is mentioned to the north in The Floating Castle.

See No Weevil also mentions several other kingdoms on the continent.

Also back in KQ1 manual there is a nod to a possible land named Cumberland.

And in KQ7 Manticore is mentioned, but never shown on any map.

[Baggins]

It's actually Monticore, btw.

Also most don't notice it, but the sea shown in the ingame load screen map is actually to the west. The swamp, mountains etc, are to the north. According to the manual. So the maps angle is shifted a different direction. Actually quite a few of the ingame maps seem to be at a different angle to that map.

BTW, we knew there were granite mountain ranges to the north back in KQ3. So having a volcano to the north as part of those mountains isn't particularly "surprising".

Like I mentioned in a previous post, a swamp to the north was mentioned in the Floating Castle. Probably a coincidence, but one that happens to fit the two together.

Also interesting is that the town of Daventry was first mentioned in Companion, and novels. In a sense its visited in KQ8... Although its location is different than mentioned in the novels. Appearing to be north of the castle rather than south.

[Fierce Deity]

With the map, you should look at the supernatural realms (Realm of the Sun, Dimension of Death) as being only symbolically on the map.

Seems like they're symbolizing Heaven and Hell. It's a shame KQ8 was the last official title. Like I said before, they really could have opened up the game to a new audience and with a new universe to explore.

[TheReturnofDMD]

With the map, you should look at the supernatural realms (Realm of the Sun, Dimension of Death) as being only symbolically on the map.

Seems like they're symbolizing Heaven and Hell. It's a shame KQ8 was the last official title. Like I said before, they really could have opened up the game to a new audience and with a new universe to explore.

Indeed. The series was only getting better as it was going on, and KQ8 was a rebirth and reinvention. Perhaps someday an official sequel will pick up where KQ8 left off and go back into the world. I wouldn't mind action. I think it might be cool. And there is commercial potential (on Activision's part) for an action/adventure/RPG KQ9. Because those markets are all still very profitable, and the genre that KQ is, fantasy, is always profitable.
I want to see either more adventures of Connor, or a KQ9 in the spirit of Mask.
Mask is a very symbolic and spiritual game. It's like Malory mixed with fairy tales, Celtic, Mesopotamian and esoteric Christianity. I could go for that kind of brew. KQ could be very spiritual.

[Baggins]

Nah, Dimension of Death isn't hell. Its more of a purgatory. Its neither good nor evil, but holds spirits who are both good and wicked. Once Azriel judges the dead they then can move onto whatever heavens and hells await them.

[TheReturnofDMD]

Nah, Dimension of Death isn't hell. Its more of a purgatory. Its neither good nor evil, but holds spirits who are both good and wicked. Once Azriel judges the dead they then can move onto whatever heavens and hells await them.

I think a next official KQ game, if Activision ever makes it, should explore ''Heaven'' and ''Hell'' in the world of KQ. It could be interesting.

[Baggins]

Remember that easter egg in Laura Bow 2? The painting in which King Graham is tortured by skeletons in hell?

No seriously, that could be a nod to a hero becoming villain .

Ponders though, Activision creating a game set in the King's Quest universe but in the same genre as God of War/Dante's Inferno/Castlevania: Lords of Shadow type game... Having to fight your way out of hell at some point, and saving heaven... With puzzle/exploration sequences tossed in between intense epic fighting sequences...

In the world of reboots and semi-reboots and truncated titles they could just call the game King's Quest (with no numbers or subtitles), to draw interest for the game (sort of what they did with Wolfenstein (2009) or Medal of Honor (2010)).

Classic adventure game genre might be a nail away from being buried in the ground... But I think the King's Quest universe is fascinating enough to inspire and be used in games of several different genres. There could even be potential for an MMO, based on the various lands that have been introduced already.

[Fierce Deity]

Ponders though, Activision creating a game set in the King's Quest universe but in the same genre as God of War/Dante's Inferno/Castlevania: Lords of Shadow type game... Having to fight your way out of hell at some point, and saving heaven... With puzzle/exploration sequences tossed in between intense epic fighting sequences...

Only if they do it right. If it's going to be another God of War clone, I think people may lack interest, especially if it's entitled King's Quest. Games that try to disengage from their roots to explore uncharted territories don't get the best reception.

Classic adventure game genre might be a nail away from being buried in the ground... But I think the King's Quest universe is fascinating enough to inspire and be used in games of several different genres. There could even be potential for an MMO, based on the various lands that have been introduced already.

An MMO might definitely work, but once again, MMOs these days aren't multifaceted like other genres. I rarely meet people who play more than one MMO, and the MMO they play is almost always World of Warcraft. I think if they were going to explore new enterprises, they should start with the Action RPG genre they were heading for with MoE. Maybe if the game was a little more polished and stood out more (having an innovative and intriguing battle system, maybe like The Witcher), it could reach an upstanding potential that could then be a gateway to other genres.   

[TheReturnofDMD]

Remember that easter egg in Laura Bow 2? The painting in which King Graham is tortured by skeletons in hell?

No seriously, that could be a nod to a hero becoming villain .

Ponders though, Activision creating a game set in the King's Quest universe but in the same genre as God of War/Dante's Inferno/Castlevania: Lords of Shadow type game... Having to fight your way out of hell at some point, and saving heaven... With puzzle/exploration sequences tossed in between intense epic fighting sequences...

In the world of reboots and semi-reboots and truncated titles they could just call the game King's Quest (with no numbers or subtitles), to draw interest for the game (sort of what they did with Wolfenstein (2009) or Medal of Honor (2010)).

Classic adventure game genre might be a nail away from being buried in the ground... But I think the King's Quest universe is fascinating enough to inspire and be used in games of several different genres. There could even be potential for an MMO, based on the various lands that have been introduced already.

My dream is for King's Quest to become a world unto itself, like Dungeons & Dragons is. Many stories, many families, many kingdoms, worlds and adventures to explore. I think "King's Quest", the universe, can go beyond the Royal Family of Daventry.
Look at Adventure in Serenia--That sort of idea. It's the same universe, indeed, same land as KQ5, just different characters with no direct connection to King's Quest.

I think a "God of War" style King's Quest, as long as it kept the world (and PERHAPS some of the characters, or at least a referrence to them--Perhaps you could play a Knight in Graham's court, or even King Edward's) could be awesome. There's still plenty of stories to tell, and I think they should be VERY mythology, fable, literature and fairy tale based. Not so much focus on the characters but instead the stories and the mythology that the story is wrapped around.
Hell, even a basic story like the story of Graham's grandfather defeating the Dragon of Herenna--Without involving Gods or Hell or Heaven--could be awesome if done right. Or even a prequel to KQ1, exploring what gave Graham the title as the bravest knight of Daventry.

You could even explore stories perhaps about the "Next generation"--The children of Alex and Cassima, or Edgar and Rosella. You could do something out of the blue and take a peasant, like Connor, and make him a Knight. Indeed, having Connor be a peasant was no coincidence--I think a subtle part of the storyline was that you didn't have to be a "Noble" to be Noble, or brave, even though that's what was commonly thought in the real medieval ages.

There is so much that can be done with the universe of King's Quest. All it takes is imagination.

[Baggins]

The thing is action-rpg in the style of MOE's combat is a bit too clunky. Anything going in that direction is regressing really...

There is a reason why action-rpg genre morphed into the Devil May Cry style combat, puzzle solving, and adventure.  God of War is simply a Devil May Cry/Ninja Gaiden clone with super boss characters, that require button timing. With extreme violence (something a KQ style action-rpg would not need).

I understand Dante's Inferno does the same button timing boss fights. Lords of Shadow will have real time boss fights of the type in Shadow of the Colossus. More like giant puzzles than purely a combat fight.

Hell even the battle system in Assasin's Creed is way more elegant compared to what MOE has to offer... Although its not as over the top as Devil May Cry style games. Gotta love its one hit kills though.

As for MMO's I don't play WOW anymore... complete waste of money (for someone that is busy with real life and can't stand monthly fees if I'm not going to get my time out of it)... Actually companies are starting to find success in the free to play model. LOTRO has been successful, and will probably see even more success now that its gone free to play. Its an elegant game compared to WoW. Simply beautiful. Give it a try if you haven't. You can pretty much access almost all the content without need to pay for extras. If you buy expansion packs you then get access to those areas to play for free as well (plus whatever they have to offer). You just get limited to a single character to use, and gold limitations, and less bags to carry stuff.

Loves my Lifetime VIP status, heh heh.

[Baggins]

Did they have better flames that early in the history of 3-d? Only thing I can think of was games using 2-d sprites for fire, that would always re-adjust itself to face your character... It looked more realistic artistically, but looked fake if you got too close to it to see that it was flat (quake 1 for example)... MOE might have been the first attempt at making 3-d fire, although it looks more like puslating fire/lava masses. They look slightly better in 3dfx mode btw, since they have a transparent appearance (they are opaque in directx and software render).

They simply didn't technology to do fires right back then... Not even Quake 2 had realistic looking fire and explosions, but kind of orange globular masses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVs6RPAmNEg&feature=related

[Fierce Deity]

I love MMOs. I played WoW as well, and I quit because I couldn't stand the endgame. Once you max out your level, you have to either PvP or Raid. I wasn't a master of my class (Rogue), so PvP was out of the question. I couldn't raid, because I couldn't find a guild that would take a "raiding rogue" seriously. I gave up.

I actually have had the opportunity to play LOTRO. It's a fun game, but I personally am waiting for Guild Wars 2. I wasn't a big fan of the first one, but the sequel seems to be coming together. I'm not completely sold on it yet, I'd like to see more before I decide. The other game I'm looking at is Star Wars: The Old Republic. Bioware keeps saying that they want to focus on story and single-player experience. It sounds like it may become a free-to-play, but they haven't confirmed whether it will be or not. I did see one gameplay video that shows a character flying to another planet in their personal spaceship, and it turns into a 3D version of Galaga. It just sounds like it's a single-player game with multi-player aspects, like Diablo.

I also agree that MoE's combat was clunky, but that doesn't mean they can polish it up. They shouldn't make it similar, they should make something new. Like I said in my other post, The Witcher has a fun combat system. It keeps you on your toes. I wouldn't mind seeing a King's Quest game that conformed to that genre, but have a satisfying combat system, as well as a more open world. Wandering in a world where everyone is turned to stone makes the game kind of dull.

[Baggins]

I serious doubt they'd retread on the "all humans turned to stone" plot line.

[TheReturnofDMD]

Did they have better flames that early in the history of 3-d? Only thing I can think of was games using 2-d sprites for fire, that would always re-adjust itself to face your character... It looked more realistic artistically, but looked fake if you got too close to it to see that it was flat... MOE might have been the first attempt at making 3-d fire, although it looks more like puslating fire/lava masses. They look slightly better in 3dfx mode btw, since they have a transparent appearance (they are opaque in directx and software render).

They simply didn't technology to do fires right back then... Not even Quake 2 had realistic looking fire and explosions, but kind of orange globular masses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVs6RPAmNEg&feature=related

Anvil of Dawn seemed to have pretty good fire effects and that came out in '96