Azure's Allegiance

[Fierce Deity]

If it was a President I voted for, probably.

Ah, but we are dealing in kings, and as we all know....

King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Very well put. I was just giving Weldon a hard time for his President-restaurant comparison, but I have no rebuttal for THAT.  

(Posted on: August 08, 2010, 10:34:57 AM)

Azure is...well, a jerk. He's loyal to no one but himself,  He seemed to "like" (or tolerate) Caliphim and Allaria's reign, and he wasn't keen on the vizier, but no one was.

It does makes me wonder why the Sacred Mountain isle even keeps ties with the rest of the isles. If the Winged Ones truly believe themselves "above and apart" from all land-walkers, then why bother with being part of the kingdom? Why not withdraw and leave the land-walkers to their own devices? Are they perhaps dependent on the other isles for things like food or trade?

It's probably more based around tradition. The Green Isles have always been that way most likely because the isles are so close together. There was even a Magic Map that was 'programmed' to teleport people to the Isle of the Sacred Mountain. Hence, the way the Winged Ones retracted from the land-walkers ordeals would lie more with the height in which they built their city. I'm sure Azure wasn't betting on a stranger solving the Cliffs of Logic (which weren't really that hard with the majority of the solutions being related to flying and going up). So the broken link that once kept the Winged Ones and the land-walkers apart was then bridged again by Alexander. The Winged Ones could break apart from the other Isles from a political standpoint, but like I said, the Isles are so close together, it'd be like trying to disown your Siamese twin.

All I'm saying is from the cutscene I saw in KQ6, Azure was actually honoring Alhazred's orders (albeit, after Alexander left the Oracle) when Alhazred wasn't even King yet. If Azure was so "high and mighty" above all humans, why would he even consider to listen to Alhazred's order. He wasn't technically his leader yet. But when Alexander did so much for the Isles and reunited the bonds that were once broken, Azure still seems to not trust Alexander even from the political standpoint (not ethical). Though, like I said, I like this personality that Azure has in TSL. It's funny and fitting. I'm more thrown off from the cutscene in KQ6 than I am the cutscene from TSL (despite KQ6 being chronologically canonical).     

[Enchantermon]

Ah, but we are dealing in kings, and as we all know....

King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Nice!

All I'm saying is from the cutscene I saw in KQ6, Azure was actually honoring Alhazred's orders (albeit, after Alexander left the Oracle) when Alhazred wasn't even King yet. If Azure was so "high and mighty" above all humans, why would he even consider to listen to Alhazred's order. He wasn't technically his leader yet.

With the King and Queen dead and Cassima "sequestered in mourning," Alhazred had taken on the responsibilities of the kingdom as is his duty as Vizier. So even though he wasn't King yet, he was the one in charge and Azure did have to do as was requested of him.

But when Alexander did so much for the Isles and reunited the bonds that were once broken, Azure still seems to not trust Alexander even from the political standpoint (not ethical).

What brings you to this conclusion? I don't hear anything in that conversation that suggests Azure distrusting Alexander as King. He just doesn't like humans; King, Vizier or otherwise.

I liked your first answer about how Azure wasn't directly ordered to help Alexander, but I'm just arguing that after everything Alexander did for the Winged Ones (in retrospect) and being the King of the Isles on top of that would deserve him a little respect from Azure (even if Alex is a lowly human).

As far as what Alexander did for Azure and Ariel, Azure dismisses that because Alexander was rewarded for what he did (he says as much in the cutscene). The King part, again, only seems to matter to him if orders are being given. Other than that, as I said previsously, Azure probably doesn't care one way or the other about the King, as he would probably much rather take care of the island himself and not be reigned over.

Why not withdraw and leave the land-walkers to their own devices? Are they perhaps dependent on the other isles for things like food or trade?

More than likely, yes. Remember, they have a very valuable commodity; mint. It only grows on the Isle of the Sacred Mountain. That makes them quite important and gives them an advantage in trade.

[Fierce Deity]

With the King and Queen dead and Cassima "sequestered in mourning," Alhazred had taken on the responsibilities of the kingdom as is his duty as Vizier. So even though he wasn't King yet, he was the one in charge and Azure did have to do as was requested of him.

Then I wonder as to why Captain Saladin had disregarded Alhazred's orders at the wedding ceremony by saying, "You aren't King yet!" Azure doesn't have to do as was requested of him. He was ordered to kill Alexander, and he let him go because Alexander helped him. That, in fact, was the exact opposite of what Alhazred wanted. It doesn't have to do with Azure's actions, it was how he referred to Alhazred as the ruler of the Crown and then referred to Alexander as if he was beneath him.

What brings you to this conclusion? I don't hear anything in that conversation that suggests Azure distrusting Alexander as King. He just doesn't like humans; King, Vizier or otherwise.

His discrimination against humans is duly noted, but I don't see why he would refer to Alexander as 'that man who fulfilled one prophecy, so shouldn't be given another favor'. Even Ariel convinced Azure to help Graham by saying, "Alexander fulfilled one prophecy, he could surely fulfill another." I'm just curious as to why in the entire conversation, Azure didn't seem to recognize Alexander as anything more than 'that prophecy kid'. Maybe not distrusting, but surely out of place. If Alexander was Azure's King, wouldn't he at least regard him as "The King", and not 'that prophecy that he fulfilled way back in the day and saved my daughter, and etc., etc., etc...'?  

[Enchantermon]

Then I wonder as to why Captain Saladin had disregarded Alhazred's orders at the wedding ceremony by saying, "You aren't King yet!"

Because "Cassima" was present and no longer sequestered, thus her decision would overrule Alhazred's as she is the heiress to the throne.

Azure doesn't have to do as was requested of him. He was ordered to kill Alexander, and he let him go because Alexander helped him. That, in fact, was the exact opposite of what Alhazred wanted.

True. However, Alexander deserved repayment for his rescuing Azure and Ariel's daughter.

It doesn't have to do with Azure's actions, it was how he referred to Alhazred as the ruler of the Crown and then referred to Alexander as if he was beneath him.

What about this: if Alhazred was lying on his deathbed, or overtaken by some curse, would Azure help him?

If Alexander was Azure's King, wouldn't he at least regard him as "The King", and not 'that prophecy that he fulfilled way back in the day and saved my daughter, and etc., etc., etc...'?

Hmm. This seems to be delving more into word choice. Just because he didn't say that Alexander was King doesn't mean that he doesn't recognize him as such (or at least recognize his authority as much as he did Alhazred's).

[KatieHal]

Re: Saladin at the wedding and reminding Alhazred he wasn't King yet, you can't forget that Alexander had also just given Saladin rather damning evidence that the Vizier was a traitor and guilty of some serious crimes. But then regardless of this, he deferred to "Cassima's" wishes and was about to kill Alex anyways when she ordered him to do so until the real King and Queen showed up.

I'd say the fact that Alhazred wasn't someone anyone trusted in KQ6 is a factor in how closely his orders were followed (or not). He was simply the only authority figure that they had at all, but no one really seemed to trust his orders or him; so they weren't driven by the loyalty and trust they might've had for some other ruler. They were more willing to ignore the orders if given good reason (in this case, saving Celeste and killing the minotaur, thus fulfilling a prophecy).

So basically, IMO, Azure didn't like Alhazred, doesn't like humans a whole lot to begin with, and trusts more in the prophecies of his race than the orders given by he Vizier. So he answered to the authority he respected in the end: the prophecy.

[Fierce Deity]

Re: Saladin at the wedding and reminding Alhazred he wasn't King yet, you can't forget that Alexander had also just given Saladin rather darning evidence that the Vizier was a traitor and guilty of some serious crimes. But then regardless of this, he deferred to "Cassima's" wishes and was about to kill Alex anyways when she ordered him to do so until the real King and Queen showed up.

I'd say the fact that Alhazred wasn't someone anyone trusted in KQ6 is a factor in how closely his orders were followed (or not). He was simply the only authority figure that they had at all, but no one really seemed to trust his orders or him; so they weren't driven by the loyalty and trust they might've had for some other ruler. They were more willing to ignore the orders if given good reason (in this case, saving Celeste and killing the minotaur, thus fulfilling a prophecy).

So basically, IMO, Azure didn't like Alhazred, doesn't like humans a whole lot to begin with, and trusts more in the prophecies of his race than the orders given by he Vizier. So he answered to the authority he respected in the end: the prophecy.

This is understood. I'm just questioning the word choice of Azure. I understand Azure thinks less of humans and will uphold a prophecy above a faux leader. I also understand the actions that Azure took to do what he thought was right. Deep down, although pompous, Azure is a pretty nice guy. I just think that Azure and Ariel were approaching Alexander's situation as if they were outsiders. Even Graham tried to convince Hassan that he should lend assistance for the benefit of his King. Graham talked to Azure as if he was a diplomat from a foreign state.

This debate has gone on for awhile, and I find myself talking in circles. I'm willing to just drop it and agree to disagree if anybody else will do so.

   

[KatieHal]

It is indeed a matter that's not clear--Azure and Ariel have a superior attitude, no question there, but at the same time they're part of the Green Isles and Alex is their king. But Graham pretty much IS a foreign diplomat and has no authority in the kingdom or on their island, no matter whose father he is.

Azure's personal allegiances are unstated, it's true. In a different game or story, that might come into play, but here it's pretty much just left to your own imaginations what he really thinks.

[Fierce Deity]

It is indeed a matter that's not clear--Azure and Ariel have a superior attitude, no question there, but at the same time they're part of the Green Isles and Alex is their king. But Graham pretty much IS a foreign diplomat and has no authority in the kingdom or on their island, no matter whose father he is.

Azure's personal allegiances are unstated, it's true. In a different game or story, that might come into play, but here it's pretty much just left to your own imaginations what he really thinks.

I really don't want to sound like I'm complaining though. In a previous post, I said that I liked Azure's voice actor, because he made Azure's character entertaining. When he so nonchalantly stated, "Your request is denied!", I literally laughed out loud. I had just got done playing through KQ6 again, and when Azure had stated that Alhazred was his liege, I was confused. I always thought that each island had their respective leaders, and that no one leader overruled another (that's why I never questioned TSL's cutscene before). But apparently, the ruler of the Crown also rules over the other islands.   

[KatieHal]

Ahh. yeah, the Green Isles overall are a kingdom ruled by the King & Queen on the Isle of the Crown; but the Isles themselves have their own leaders for smaller matters and internal governance. I usually think of it as being like the US--the States all have their own mayors & governors, but in the end they all still answer to the President.

LOL, yeah, I love that line. I also find it really funny how he's staring at his hand when you first come in. I keep thinking Azure's high and thinking, "Oh my god..my hands! They're huge!" 

[crayauchtin]

I think what everyone is saying (but failing to say at the same time) is that the reason Azure refers to Alexander as a human who fulfilled a prophecy is because, to Azure, that holds more respect than "King".

As for Graham acting like a diplomat from a foreign state... well, that's likely because he is from a foreign state. Similarly, Azure may be bound by duty to follow Alexander's orders -- however grudgingly -- but he is not Alexander's friend and likely wouldn't care if Alexander died. In fact, for a political leader like Azure it might even be an opportunity to make himself the King of the Green Isles.

[Fierce Deity]

In fact, for a political leader like Azure it might even be an opportunity to make himself the King of the Green Isles.

Not likely. King Caliphim and Queen Allaria both died, and Alhazred became the leader. I think Azure's reasons for not caring about Alexander's death has more to do with what he said in the game. He said he'd rather not concern himself with 'human problems'. It's definitely more ethical than political. I just wondered, because if I were to talk about the President, I would acknowledge him as 'the President', not 'so-and-so who did something or other'. But when Azure was talking about Alhazred in KQ6, he said 'liege' and 'ruler of the Crown'. Now it may be because Alhazred holds no real significance to Azure, while Alexander solved the Cliffs of Logic, killed the Minotaur, and saved Celeste. I was just wondering if there was a reason that Azure was avoiding to refer to Alexander as a King. I didn't know if I was missing something, but I guess I'm just looking at it differently than everybody else. 

[Enchantermon]

This debate has gone on for awhile, and I find myself talking in circles. I'm willing to just drop it and agree to disagree if anybody else will do so.

I've found myself doing that as well.

[crayauchtin]

Not likely. King Caliphim and Queen Allaria both died, and Alhazred became the leader. I think Azure's reasons for not caring about Alexander's death has more to do with what he said in the game. He said he'd rather not concern himself with 'human problems'. It's definitely more ethical than political. I just wondered, because if I were to talk about the President, I would acknowledge him as 'the President', not 'so-and-so who did something or other'. But when Azure was talking about Alhazred in KQ6, he said 'liege' and 'ruler of the Crown'. Now it may be because Alhazred holds no real significance to Azure, while Alexander solved the Cliffs of Logic, killed the Minotaur, and saved Celeste. I was just wondering if there was a reason that Azure was avoiding to refer to Alexander as a King. I didn't know if I was missing something, but I guess I'm just looking at it differently than everybody else. 

Alhazred, as vizier, was next in line for the throne. With no "next in line" in terms of Cassima and Alexander's reign.... wouldn't someone who is already ruling an island be considered? That was just my thinking there.

[Fierce Deity]

Alhazred, as vizier, was next in line for the throne. With no "next in line" in terms of Cassima and Alexander's reign.... wouldn't someone who is already ruling an island be considered? That was just my thinking there.

You'd think so, but I haven't quite figured out the political system of the Green Isles. Not to mention, it seems like every island in itself has a different political system. What would it take to be the leader of the Isle of the Beast? You'd have to be the Beast, and there's only one Beast. So that sounds like a dictatorship. But then again, he's the only resident of the Island (aside from Beauty, who came later). The Isle of Wonder is ruled by two queens, so that would be a form of an oligarchy. The Isle of the Mists has a tribal rule. The citizens would have to belong to a clique (be a druid). The Sacred Mountain has a formal state of leadership, but they are controlled by the prophecies that Oracle construes. It would be ruled more based on faith than politics.

So clearly, the standards of leadership are different for each island, so I wouldn't be able to even begin to understand what the entire Land of the Green Isles' political system would be, much less decide how they cast a new leader. 

[Lambonius]

It's strongly implied in KQ6 (if not explicitly stated) that each island is governed by its own leaders, but that all of those leaders answer to the king and queen of the Isle of the Crown, who are the high king and queen of the ENTIRE Green Isles.

[Fierce Deity]

It's strongly implied in KQ6 (if not explicitly stated) that each island is governed by its own leaders, but that all of those leaders answer to the king and queen of the Isle of the Crown, who are the high king and queen of the ENTIRE Green Isles.

Arriving a little late to the discussion? Ha, no offense, but we already established how the King of the Crown rules the entire Land of the Green Isles. We were wondering what were to happen if the King died. Obviously, the vizier was 'next in line', but we were wondering where the leadership would go if Alexander and Cassima were to die (with no heir or replacement). Would the leadership pass on to one of the other isles, or would they wait for a leader to be elected for the Isle of the Crown?

I was just listing the different governments from each island. Isle of Mists is tribal, Isle of Wonders is oligarchy, Isle of Beast is dictatorship (of sorts), and Isle of the Sacred Mountain is driven by prophecy (technically the Oracle would be in charge then). But as a whole, I wouldn't be able to decide how the governments would work together if their King or Queen should die without a replacement.   

[Lambonius]

Ah.  So you did.   

Veering away from the "what would happen if Alexander and Cassima died" discussion and back towards the thread title, I thought I'd point out that Azure being bitter about having to answer to any human (high king or not) would explain both his readiness to disobey Alhazared and let Alexander go after he rescued his daughter, AND his coldness and unwillingness to help Graham save Alexander, even though Cassima, the high Queen, is still alive and well and could have issued a general order for any and all Green Isles residents to aid Graham in his quest in whatever way they could.

[Fierce Deity]

Ah.  So you did.   

Veering away from the "what would happen if Alexander and Cassima died" discussion and back towards the thread title, I thought I'd point out that Azure being bitter about having to answer to any human (high king or not) would explain both his readiness to disobey Alhazared and let Alexander go after he rescued his daughter, AND his coldness and unwillingness to help Graham save Alexander, even though Cassima, the high Queen, is still alive and well and could have issued a general order for any and all Green Isles residents to aid Graham in his quest in whatever way they could.

I didn't even think of that. Cassima actually could make that order, couldn't she? But that would make it way too easy. Then you'd just have to sail to each isle and be back home in time for dinner. 

There's a lot more to Azure than just prophecies I'm sure. He has helped Alexander twice now (KQ6 and TSL). Maybe his hate for humans will wane in time (or maybe not). I'm hoping to see more of him in the other episodes though.

[Lambonius]

I'm pretty certain we will be seeing more of Azure and the Winged Ones.  Episode 1 seemed to hint at that pretty strongly. 

In every case where Azure has "helped" Alexander, it has always been reluctantly, and always at the pressing of his wife.  For a guy who seems to be on such a power trip, I find it a little ironic that his wife seems to perpetually have him by the balls.  But then, I suppose that's just the way of most marriages now isn't it? 

[Fierce Deity]

Yup, sure seems like it. But that's no surprise. Just look at how the two Queens of the Isle of Wonder bicker and fight constantly. It's because there's no man to 'give in' to their arguments. Women are truly unstoppable forces to be reckoned with.