Azure's Allegiance

[Baggins]

You know the queens' are sisters according to KQ6... its a bit of sibling rivalry, :p...

I'm sure Azure wasn't betting on a stranger solving the Cliffs of Logic (which weren't really that hard with the majority of the solutions being related to flying and going up)

All the Winged Ones seem a bit miffed that they weren't the ones that solved it. It hadn't been solved in centuries, and apparently hadn't been solved since the times of the Ancient Ones who built them in the first place.

Shortly before Derek visited the islands the Minotor moved in and the Oracle made her prophecy that only the one who could solve the cliffs would defeat the minotaur. That must have been a harsh blow to them, since none of them could figure out the answer to the cliffs.

[wilco64256]

Sad considering how the puzzles should have been far easier for any Winged One to solve than any human.

[KatieHal]

And considering that realistically, Alex was just guessing since he'd never read the Guidebook himself!

[Lambonius]

All the Winged Ones seem a bit miffed that they weren't the ones that solved it. It hadn't been solved in centuries, and apparently hadn't been solved since the times of the Ancient Ones who built them in the first place.

Why would the Ancient Ones need to solve the Cliffs when they can easily fly over them?  They wouldn't need to know the solution, so there's no real reason for them to be pissed about it. 

[KatieHal]

Hehe, I think they just like having something to feel irritated about

[wilco64256]

All the Winged Ones seem a bit miffed that they weren't the ones that solved it. It hadn't been solved in centuries, and apparently hadn't been solved since the times of the Ancient Ones who built them in the first place.

Why would the Ancient Ones need to solve the Cliffs when they can easily fly over them?  They wouldn't need to know the solution, so there's no real reason for them to be pissed about it. 

Except for the prophecy stating that only the one who solved the cliffs could defeat the minotaur.

[Baggins]

And considering that realistically, Alex was just guessing since he'd never read the Guidebook himself!

Actually he had apparently had read guidebook, if you look around the screens around the cliff, the narrator nods that Alex "should remember the clues from the guidebook" or some such thing.

In the Companion its said that Derek gave him a copy of the guidebook before he went to the Green Isles, but it was lost during the shipwreck, but he had already read it.

How else do you think he would have figured out the alphabet puzzles? or the brothers puzzle? Or any of the ones that require any knowledge of Ancient Ones logic.

Why would the Ancient Ones need to solve the Cliffs when they can easily fly over them?  They wouldn't need to know the solution, so there's no real reason for them to be pissed about it.  

The Ancient Ones didn't fly, they were ground walkers. Although they may have had flying machines.

As its stated in the guidebook the cliffs were a way to defend their civilization.

The Winged Ones on the other hand, where the ones with wings. It was also the Winged Ones Oracle that made that prophecy less than half a century before KQ6. They couldn't stop the minotaur unless that prophecy was fulfilled.

Just listen to the Winged Ones guard's comment when he discovers Alexander solved the puzzle, and the Winged Ones didn't.

[snabbott]

All the Winged Ones seem a bit miffed that they weren't the ones that solved it. It hadn't been solved in centuries, and apparently hadn't been solved since the times of the Ancient Ones who built them in the first place.

Why would the Ancient Ones need to solve the Cliffs when they can easily fly over them?  They wouldn't need to know the solution, so there's no real reason for them to be pissed about it. 

Except for the prophecy stating that only the one who solved the cliffs could defeat the minotaur.

Yeah - I'll bet Azure would say one of the Winged Ones could have solved it if they had really wanted to, though.

[Baggins]

Just like he claimed that there many Winged Ones who would be willing to brave the catacombs to defeat the minotaur, yet most seem to be cowards... :p

However, he does say, no one has been able to solve them in centuries :p...

His guard is even more stuck up than him... it was the guard that alluded that only Winged Ones would be able to solve it, LOL.

[Lambonius]

Oops--I wasn't reading that closely enough.  My eyes saw "Ancient Ones" and my mind read "Winged Ones."     I hadn't realized there was a separate race that built the cliffs--I had assumed the Winged Ones built them to keep human travelers out of their city.

Does it say somewhere that the Ancient Ones aren't winged?  Just curious.

[Baggins]

The Guidebook has all that information and then some about the Ancient Ones.

[Cez]

Azure just likes to be begged. After all, he allows Graham, a complete foreigner, and someone who hasn't done anything for them yet to see the mighty Oracle. just on the idea that Alex might, he just might, be involved with another prophecy. Allowing someone to see the Great Oracle is something to not be taken lightly, and an honor to anyone allowed to do so. Something that the Winged Ones take quite seriously.

He just wasn't ready to bow down to humans right away. Here was this man, dressed like a commoner, dragged by his guard into his throne room. He wasn't going to be open arms about it, but the fact that, at the end, regardless of Ariel's intervention, he does let Graham visit the oracle, clearly shows where his allegiance lies. And the fact that he could consider Alexander great enough to fulfill another prophecy also shows how high he thinks of Alex, even if he doesn't openly show it, and shows no respect by not attending his sister's wedding in his castle.

He's just a very complex character. I may say that on the writing side, that particular cutscene is one of my fav moments in the game, because of the complexity of the characters playing there and how it all came together. I'm very happy with it.

[crayauchtin]

The Guidebook has all that information and then some about the Ancient Ones.

If I recall correctly, the Guidebook says that the Ancient Ones were theoretically ground walkers with technology or magic that allowed them to fly, but it also insinuates that they had lighter bones and probably evolved wings and became the Winged Ones.

[Fierce Deity]

Azure just likes to be begged. After all, he allows Graham, a complete foreigner, and someone who hasn't done anything for them yet to see the mighty Oracle. just on the idea that Alex might, he just might, be involved with another prophecy. Allowing someone to see the Great Oracle is something to not be taken lightly, and an honor to anyone allowed to do so. Something that the Winged Ones take quite seriously.

He just wasn't ready to bow down to humans right away. Here was this man, dressed like a commoner, dragged by his guard into his throne room. He wasn't going to be open arms about it, but the fact that, at the end, regardless of Ariel's intervention, he does let Graham visit the oracle, clearly shows where his allegiance lies. And the fact that he could consider Alexander great enough to fulfill another prophecy also shows how high he thinks of Alex, even if he doesn't openly show it, and shows no respect by not attending his sister's wedding in his castle.

He's just a very complex character. I may say that on the writing side, that particular cutscene is one of my fav moments in the game, because of the complexity of the characters playing there and how it all came together. I'm very happy with it.

That makes a lot of sense. I was just thinking about how Azure is a complex character. That's one of the reasons why I like him so much. I was just looking to elaborate on the situation by bringing up a discussion.

Another thing that I noticed when I went through the KQ6 cutscene again was Azure saying that he has no love for Alhazred's orders, but that he only listens to him because Cassima wants to marry him. So clearly he was affected by the false rumors as well, and his loyalty lies with Cassima (the true heir to the royal family). He also said that when Alhazred told him to dispose of any trespassers, he didn't specify how to do so, so Azure decided to "dispose" of Alexander by putting him in the catacombs (to save his daughter). Thus fulfilling the orders that Alhazred bestowed upon him and giving Alexander the chance to fulfill the prophecy.

Complex indeed, but entertaining all the same.     

[KatieHal]

Azure would be even more interesting if this game were as gritty as the book series Song of Ice & Fire. Hoo boy!

[Baggins]

If I recall correctly, the Guidebook says that the Ancient Ones were theoretically ground walkers with technology or magic that allowed them to fly, but it also insinuates that they had lighter bones and probably evolved wings and became the Winged Ones.

Actually, not "evolved'" from the Ancient Ones, but rather, that the ancient ones created a winged race, that evolved into the Winged Ones. The ancient ones were pretty advanced technologically and scientifically apparently. They apparently knew how to create life.

The Ancient Ones themselves died off.

Also the Guidebook seems to imply more scientific knowlege rather than magic (winged ones probably developed there disdain for magic from the Ancient Ones). The ancient ones were also apparently the ones that invented the modern "alphabet", A-Z (used all over the world and in Daventry).

The Winged Ones consider them superior to their race (because they believed they had learned to fly without wings), and according to the Guidebook are very protective of the antiquity and artifacts from the Ancient Ones. Do you understand destroying the cliffs of logic to them would be like someone going out and taking a sledge hammer to the Rosetta Stone? The Winged Ones treated Ancient Ones archaelogical artifacts with extreme reverence and almost religious devotion. We are told in the guidebook that they "fiercely guard the artifacts". We are told that cliffs of logic are one of these 'artifacts'

Just look how upset archaelogists got when the Buddhas of Bamyan were destroyed by the Taliban :p...

Plus the fact there were still alot of secrets to be had, in learning the technology behind the cliffs, in a non-destructive way, and applying it for other uses :p...

[kindofdoon]

Good point, Baggins. Any explanation, Kate?

[Baggins]

I am an archaeologist, so it its something like this causes me extreme pain, LOL.

Remember that scene in Last Crusade, when Henry Jones, Sr, breaks a Ming Vase over Indy's head? Then nearly has a heart attack? Ya, that's how we feel about destruction of antiquity :p...

Seriously its a big island they could have built stair case anywhere, without having to take the proverbial bull dozers to a World Heritage site...

[Lambonius]

I thought it had been established the the original Cliffs from KQ6 were on the south side of the island, and that the newly-built stairway was on the North side in TSL?

[Baggins]

Well, its true tht the game designers didn't pay attention to the KQ6 source material and put the former "cliffs of logic"'s location on the north side of the island. It was a mistake.

But we are told they destroyed the Cliffs of Logic to make room for this staircase. If they were to say cut that line from the game however, then just have the staircase be something that was built in an area that was not destructive to any Ancient Ones archaeological sites (which we are told Winged Ones fiercly guard) there would be no issue (other than Graham's ability to swim in the Dangerous Currents).