Author Topic: Something that I noticed  (Read 12642 times)

Offline scintilla77

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Something that I noticed
« on: August 08, 2010, 02:10:29 PM »
Has anyone else noticed that TSL is a lot like KQ6 so far?
 
I mean, in both games, you first have to prove that you're royalty by using something from Daventry (a ring in KQ6, a coin in TSL), then you have to convince the grumpy ferryman to help you.
 
In both games you also have to go see the oracle on the isle of the Sacred Mountain who talks to you about fate and then tells you to visit the isle of the Mists. Then when you get to the isle (again, in both games), the Archdruid tells you that in order to succeed, you have to travel to another realm/dimension, and he gives you clues how to get there.
 
Almost all the scenes in TSL are one's we've already been to in KQ6, and this is just in the first episode. The screenshots from the second episode look like we're going to more places we've already visited, and in the bookshop scene, Jollo's even sitting in that exact same chair!
 
I'm new here, so this stuff may have already been posted somewhere else, but I wanted to post it anyway because I thought it was really interesting.
 
What do you guys think?

Offline Baggins

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2010, 02:14:32 PM »
Immitation is the best form of flattery?
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2010, 02:43:08 PM »
Almost all the scenes in TSL are one's we've already been to in KQ6

It is to be expected that when a game takes places in the same location another game did that you'll see some of the same areas.  More than a quarter of the scenes in Episode 1 weren't in KQ6, and we have quite a few more new areas coming in future Episodes as well.

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Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2010, 03:00:36 PM »

Then when you get to the isle (again, in both games), the Archdruid tells you that in order to succeed, you have to travel to another realm/dimension, and he gives you clues how to get there.
 

I distinctly remember the Arch Druid trying to roast me over an open fire in KQ6. In TSL, he was rather quite friendly.

I understand why people are labeling TSL as a KQ6 Remake of sorts, but I simply see it as a new adventure, just going to the same places and meeting the same people. Besides, what do people expect when a character goes to the Oracle? Giving an ominous reading about fate and a prophecy is the only thing the Oracle CAN do. Same with the Arch Druid. People wouldn't go to the Arch Druid to buy a book, they would go to Ali's.

It's hard to see the game as something original when all we've seen so far has already been introduced in KQ6, but it's a guideline that needs to be followed to keep the game relevant to the official, canonical King's Quest universe.
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TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2010, 03:10:18 PM »

Then when you get to the isle (again, in both games), the Archdruid tells you that in order to succeed, you have to travel to another realm/dimension, and he gives you clues how to get there.
 

I distinctly remember the Arch Druid trying to roast me over an open fire in KQ6. In TSL, he was rather quite friendly.

I understand why people are labeling TSL as a KQ6 Remake of sorts, but I simply see it as a new adventure, just going to the same places and meeting the same people. Besides, what do people expect when a character goes to the Oracle? Giving an ominous reading about fate and a prophecy is the only thing the Oracle CAN do. Same with the Arch Druid. People wouldn't go to the Arch Druid to buy a book, they would go to Ali's.

It's hard to see the game as something original when all we've seen so far has already been introduced in KQ6, but it's a guideline that needs to be followed to keep the game relevant to the official, canonical King's Quest universe.

Wasn't the guideline/formula in every one of the KQ games to go to a new place, outside of maybe beginning in Daventry in a cut-scene? I mean the only games that returned to an old location are KQ3 and MoE, and in MoE we visited a different part of Daventry than in KQ1 with all new characters and a completely different layout.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 03:12:07 PM by TheReturnofDMD »

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 03:15:40 PM »
Almost all the scenes in TSL are one's we've already been to in KQ6

It is to be expected that when a game takes places in the same location another game did that you'll see some of the same areas.  More than a quarter of the scenes in Episode 1 weren't in KQ6, and we have quite a few more new areas coming in future Episodes as well.



Something I had noticed in Episode 1 when I stepped outside of the castle; I tried to take the left-hand path to see if it would wrap around to the side of the castle like it did in KQ6, but I just ended up at the Fork in the road. Seeing as how the protagonists are no longer enemies of the Crown, it seems pointless to try to sneak into the castle, but I was curious as to whether that area would make a reappearance for whatever reason.

Or is that area too :suffer: worthy?
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 03:20:23 PM »
Quote
are KQ3 and MoE, and in MoE we visited a different part of Daventry than in KQ1 with all new characters and a completely different layout

To be fair, the layout of Daventry in KQ3 is different than the layout in KQ1. The two maps don't fit on top of each other. The ancient well was no where near the Door into Mountain.

Beyond that, in KQ3, Daventry is only a small part of the game towards the end. In MOE, Daventry is only the first area of the game in the beginning (the rest of the game is visiting a bunch of assorted lands).
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 03:23:00 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 03:22:10 PM »
Quote
are KQ3 and MoE, and in MoE we visited a different part of Daventry than in KQ1 with all new characters and a completely different layout

To be fair, the layout of Daventry in KQ3 is different than the layout in KQ1. The two maps don't fit on top of each other.

Beyond that, in KQ3, Daventry is only a small part of the game towards the end. In MOE, Daventry is only the first area of the game in the beginning (the rest of the game is visiting a bunch of assorted lands).

Right. In both cases, Daventry isn't EXACTLY the same as it was in KQ1. I mean if Roberta had wanted she could've made the Daventry level of MoE essentialy a 3D version of the land in KQ1.

Going back to old lands or old characters was never really the spirit of KQ. It was about new lands, new colorful NPCs, new adventures.

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2010, 03:24:37 PM »

Then when you get to the isle (again, in both games), the Archdruid tells you that in order to succeed, you have to travel to another realm/dimension, and he gives you clues how to get there.
 

I distinctly remember the Arch Druid trying to roast me over an open fire in KQ6. In TSL, he was rather quite friendly.

I understand why people are labeling TSL as a KQ6 Remake of sorts, but I simply see it as a new adventure, just going to the same places and meeting the same people. Besides, what do people expect when a character goes to the Oracle? Giving an ominous reading about fate and a prophecy is the only thing the Oracle CAN do. Same with the Arch Druid. People wouldn't go to the Arch Druid to buy a book, they would go to Ali's.

It's hard to see the game as something original when all we've seen so far has already been introduced in KQ6, but it's a guideline that needs to be followed to keep the game relevant to the official, canonical King's Quest universe.

Wasn't the guideline/formula in every one of the KQ games to go to a new place, outside of maybe beginning in Daventry in a cut-scene? I mean the only games that returned to an old location are KQ3 and MoE, and in MoE we visited a different part of Daventry than in KQ1 with all new characters and a completely different layout.


I'm personally considering TSL to be an exception to the rule, simply because it's not being made by the original developers. A new area, with a brand new cast of characters would be welcome, I'm sure, but it's easy for them to 'mess it up' in accordance to what fans would expect. In a way, you could call it "Playing it safe", and I think that's perfectly fine given the circumstances.

And what I meant by 'guideline' was that the location and setting for the game was already made up for them (it being the setting from KQ6), they just needed to fill the setting with their plot, characters, progression, puzzles, etc.
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline Baggins

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2010, 03:27:52 PM »
Quote
Going back to old lands or old characters was never really the spirit of KQ. It was about new lands, new colorful NPCs, new adventures.

True with the exception of Old Gnome (KQ1/3), Cassima (KQ5/6), and Edgar (KQ4/7), and a few no-named encounters that reused sprites (dwarf, enchanter/sorcerer), I don't think the games had very many "reoccuring characters".

The Wizard in MOE, almost became Crispin, but they never made a point of it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 03:29:24 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2010, 03:43:29 PM »


I'm personally considering TSL to be an exception to the rule, simply because it's not being made by the original developers. A new area, with a brand new cast of characters would be welcome, I'm sure, but it's easy for them to 'mess it up' in accordance to what fans would expect. In a way, you could call it "Playing it safe", and I think that's perfectly fine given the circumstances.

Actually, I think it would be MUCH safer to create a whole new area with new characters and events exactly for the reason that you WOULDN'T have all the nitpickers comparing every little thing to the game that came before.  That way, since it was something completely original, it'd be a lot easier to accept things like differences in tone and character/dialogue style from previous games, because we know that those are unique creations of POS, not explicitly borrowed and recreated characters and areas from KQ6.  By so explicitly and exactly attempting to reproduce the land (and even more than that, the EXACT SCENES AND ANGLES) from KQ6, the team automatically opens themselves up to direct comparisons, and essentially sets themselves up for harsher criticism than they'd receive if they had attempted to create something wholly original.  

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2010, 03:58:16 PM »


I'm personally considering TSL to be an exception to the rule, simply because it's not being made by the original developers. A new area, with a brand new cast of characters would be welcome, I'm sure, but it's easy for them to 'mess it up' in accordance to what fans would expect. In a way, you could call it "Playing it safe", and I think that's perfectly fine given the circumstances.

Actually, I think it would be MUCH safer to create a whole new area with new characters and events exactly for the reason that you WOULDN'T have all the nitpickers comparing every little thing to the game that came before.  That way, since it was something completely original, it'd be a lot easier to accept things like differences in tone and character/dialogue style from previous games, because we know that those are unique creations of POS, not explicitly borrowed and recreated characters and areas from KQ6.  By so explicitly and exactly attempting to reproduce the land (and even more than that, the EXACT SCENES AND ANGLES) from KQ6, the team automatically opens themselves up to direct comparisons, and essentially sets themselves up for harsher criticism than they'd receive if they had attempted to create something wholly original.  

Valid point. I'm giving PO Studios a chance to make something out of this opportunity. They have promised original areas and original characters, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, most people won't give them that much. I haven't really even made my own personal thread about what I think of the game yet. Many people have already jumped on the "Episode 1 was AWESOME!" bandwagon, but as much as I liked being reintroduced to the series, I'm really waiting for Episode 2 before I state my opinion of what I think.
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Offline scintilla77

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2010, 04:58:26 PM »
I'm not saying that the way things happened in TSL was wrong at all, but still, think how it might have been if Rosella and Edgar's wedding had been in Etheria instead of the Green Isles.* We could've had the same general plot, but we would be able to see all kinds of new locations and maybe meet some new characters (Etheria looked so big in the KQ7 ending video, but we only got to explore a little piece of it in KQ7). We could've explored Oberon and Titania's castle, then used a flying ship to travel to the island where that portal to the Fates' world is, and then they would tell you what was going on and how to lift the curse.

Again, I'm not saying that this is what TSL SHOULD have done, it was just something I thought of.
 

*BTW, I still don't get why R+E were getting married in the Green Isles and not Etheria or Daventry. Was this explained in the game somewhere?

Offline Baggins

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2010, 05:01:51 PM »
Quote
I'm not saying that the way things happened in TSL was wrong at all, but still, think how it might have been if Rosella and Edgar's wedding had been in Etheria instead of the Green Isles.*
It's interesting to note that in the Authorized KQ7 Hintguide, and King's Quest Companion, the rumors of the wedding was it was going to take place in Daventry, go figure.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2010, 06:10:02 PM »
I'm not saying that the way things happened in TSL was wrong at all, but still, think how it might have been if Rosella and Edgar's wedding had been in Etheria instead of the Green Isles.

There was actually early screenshots of what the game was going to look like back when it was still called KQIX that showed Graham standing in what looked to be Etheria. I'm sure the idea of having a wedding in Daventry or Etheria was tossed around, however, I actually liked that it was in The Green Isles. It doesn't make much sense, but The Land of the Green Isles was my favorite location out of the entire series. Just the large array of diverse characters makes the place so intriguing. I wasn't the biggest fan of Etheria, but then again, I wasn't the biggest fan of KQ7 (and it's Disney-ness).

The way I'm looking at it, Alexander was a brand new King and probably still had to heal the relations between the isles, and couldn't afford to travel around like King Oberon and King Graham. It wasn't just Edgar and Rosella's wedding, it was also the twins' birthday as well. So he probably offered to allow the couple to marry in the Isle of the Crown so he could partake in the festivities as well (it's probably Alexander's excuse to get both birthday cake and wedding cake). 
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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2010, 06:24:48 PM »
This is a major reason why the game is taking place in the Land of the Green Isles.  Certainly there are people who would recognize locales from any game of the series, but KQ6 is by far the most well-known game in the series.  Plus it offers a really wide variety of locations within the same general game area.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2010, 06:29:29 PM »
This is a major reason why the game is taking place in the Land of the Green Isles.  Certainly there are people who would recognize locales from any game of the series, but KQ6 is by far the most well-known game in the series.  Plus it offers a really wide variety of locations within the same general game area.

Actually, I would think that limiting the game to 5 distinct pre-defined geographic islands rather than an ambiguously defined land like Etheria (or even Daventry) would be far more limiting when it comes to the variety of possible locations.  A little creativity is all it takes to come up with new locations.  And I would imagine that 90% of people that find their way to this website in the first place are probably familiar with the entire series (from at least a cursory standpoint,) not just KQ6.  So I don't buy that reasoning.

Show of hands of people who have only played KQ6 and no other game in the series.

...
...
...

Exactly.  ;)

Offline Allronix

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2010, 08:05:32 PM »
I'm chalking it up to "It's the Green Isles. Nothing's going to run smooth."  :suffer:

Going with the idea that this is going to be a "farewell" of sorts, it makes sense to unravel it, starting with the Green Isles where the story begins. (And the one game 90% of the fandom will call the crown jewel). The Arch Druid also said we'd be headed back to Daventry, as the spell will only work there.

The contents of the twins' dreams? We're liable to see Llewdor and Tamir influences there. Judging from the trailer I found online, there is going to be a point where Graham confronts memories from Kolyma, too. So, through dreams and memories, this may be a surreal and bittersweet walk through all of the history we've build up. Again, there's a heaviness to all of this that gets me thinking the ending may not be "happily ever after."
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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2010, 08:19:22 PM »
And I would imagine that 90% of people that find their way to this website in the first place are probably familiar with the entire series (from at least a cursory standpoint,) not just KQ6.  So I don't buy that reasoning.

You might be surprised - quite a few people have played KQ6 and not all of the others, but very few people have played other games in the series but never 6.  I have yet to speak with anybody who has only played 6, but I have chatted with a number of people who have only played 6 and one or two of the others.

And yes we could have come up with an entirely new location, but that would make even less sense for the wedding (why are they getting married someplace nobody in the family has ever been before??) and using an existing location that people are familiar with gives us a basic outline of areas to work with from a game design standpoint.  At least we picked what most would likely agree is the best game in the series to build on.
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Offline sahara

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Re: Something that I noticed
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2010, 08:25:17 PM »
Actually, I think it would be MUCH safer to create a whole new area with new characters and events exactly for the reason that you WOULDN'T have all the nitpickers comparing every little thing to the game that came before.  That way, since it was something completely original, it'd be a lot easier to accept things like differences in tone and character/dialogue style from previous games, because we know that those are unique creations of POS, not explicitly borrowed and recreated characters and areas from KQ6.  By so explicitly and exactly attempting to reproduce the land (and even more than that, the EXACT SCENES AND ANGLES) from KQ6, the team automatically opens themselves up to direct comparisons, and essentially sets themselves up for harsher criticism than they'd receive if they had attempted to create something wholly original.  

You are so right.  This was one of my biggest concerns when I first played the demo.  I felt like I was playing KQ6... total deja vu... but a KQ6 with more limited gameplay.  I was very surprised that they copied the art style and scenes from KQ6 so much; I think it would have been more exciting to see a lot more new locations or at least different takes on previously-visited locations.  PO Studios clearly has the talent and ability to pull this off, as the 3D renderings in TSL are absolutely beautiful.  Let's hope future eipsodes have more new characters and locations to explore.  A few "old" locations would have been acceptable in TSL for nostalgia reasons, but the majority of the game should feel like a new, fresh adventure and not a retread.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 08:33:33 PM by sahara »
 

anything