Author Topic: Re-inventing the Wheel  (Read 61382 times)

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2010, 09:41:24 PM »
Well, despite getting a bit worked up once or twice--I think DMD makes some valid points worth considering.  Also, it's hard not to feel personally attached to something you grew up with that means a lot to you--so I can see why people feel so strongly about it changing directions (though I don't necessarily think it warrants flame a war or anything like that--but I don't really think he's crossed into that territory yet...much.  ;))

Personally--and this is coming from someone in another fan development group--I DO think it's a little presumptuous to take someone else's original creations and characters, create a story and atmosphere that deviates significantly from the established formula/vision, and then use the fans' love of those original classics to hype yourself up with the hope of eventual commercial gain.  I'm not trying to be offensive here--just calling it as I see it.   :-\

It's one thing if it's just fan fiction and stays that way--it's another entirely if you hope to eventually profit from it (even if it's with new games under an acquired commercial license.)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 09:49:52 PM by Lambonius »

Offline waltzdancing

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2010, 09:52:38 PM »
I see where you are coming from and can understand how you feel about the situation and am willing to listen to any suggestions you might have.

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2010, 10:01:44 PM »
This is the thing: Doesn't it seem just a LITTLE lofty that you haven't even released a full game yet as a team, and yet are already (perhaps even seriously?) contemplating getting a commercial license to produce 'official' sequels to OTHER franchises which thousands of people love?

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2010, 10:21:59 PM »
I don't think so, personally. It's one possible idea of many, which may or may not even happen. We're making plans, and we're making many of them--some are for original IPs, some are what we might do if we could option or purchase Sierra IPs, so forth and so on. Some of these ideas are bigger than others (the Sierra IP one, for example), but we're keeping our eyes and options as open as we can.

It's a big goal to aim for, sure, but why not at least try?

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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2010, 10:23:02 PM »
Certainly not, lofty goals keep us motivated.  In general, the reviews for what we have released have primarily said one thing - "The other episodes need to be longer and more adventure game-ish."  We know for a fact that the other episodes are going to meet that expectation, so why shouldn't we start looking beyond the end of this project?  And we are all HUGE fans of the old Sierra franchises, so it's only natural that we'd be thinking, "Hey, how cool would it be if people really liked this King's Quest project that we've put together and then we got a chance to do something similar with other old games that we know and love?"
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 10:32:14 PM by wilco64256 »
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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2010, 10:32:10 PM »
This is the thing: Doesn't it seem just a LITTLE lofty that you haven't even released a full game yet as a team, and yet are already (perhaps even seriously?) contemplating getting a commercial license to produce 'official' sequels to OTHER franchises which thousands of people love?

Is it wrong to have goals? I'm not sure how anybody else is viewing what Cesar said, but I saw it as a simple, "This is what we hope to achieve." "Point-and-click" Adventure games recently have been few and far between. It may very well be why so many have decided to commit to making remakes and fan-fictions based around the famed series of old. Phoenix Online have only stated that they wish to do for Sierra's games what Telltale did for the LucasArts titles. I would actually like to see another company claim the franchises we have all grown up with. You're principle argument is sound, but it seems like you are only stating that Phoenix Online shouldn't have the rights to the games. We could bicker all day about which team deserves the right, but in the end it has to be somebody. As of right now, Phoenix Online is the only team that seems interested in taking up the mantle. Besides, they've already formed a bit of a relationship with Activision (not a solid bond, but for an Adventure company, pretty damn close).

I already stated that I understand how disappointment can lead to a lack of faith, but I'll give a personal example. I had played through Tales of Monkey Island which was an original adventure game (split into episodic downloads) that was made by Telltale Games. Monkey Island was originally done by LucasArts. So in a way, it's similar to what we are debating right now (if hypothetically Phoenix Online were to get the rights to Sierra's games). I liked the new environment and the different atmosphere that Monkey Island was known for. Telltale games brought back an old cast as well as introduce new faces. However, I was overall disappointed with the ending (not going to spoil anything). So Telltale Games took a series that wasn't theirs and tried to establish themselves as a game developer by putting their spin on it. Would it be wise to completely disregard any other game that they attempt to make? Hardly. If anything, it'd be wise to pay close attention to them. Cause while I can sit back and point out the flaws, I can easily sit back and ponder the advantages that the game had.

Yes, Phoenix Online hasn't officially released an entire game, but the entire game may surprise you. I liked Tales of Monkey Island until the very last episode, is it hard to believe that an experience could just as easily be affected by vice versa? Episode 1 probably didn't blow anyone away, but the last episode could make up for any faults. I may be too forgiving, but like I said in response to Lambonius' comment, I'm going to give Phoenix Online the benefit of the doubt. Once Episode 2 is released, then my true colors will be shown. I just have experienced similar scenarios, and I wouldn't want to jump the gun until I get a fair experience. Now back to what Cesar said about the future of Phoenix Online, he is only expressing how he feels about the project and where he'd like to see the company go. Till the fans, Activision, and Phoenix Online themselves see how reactions pertain to The Silver Lining, the commercial license talk will just be talk, and nothing more.  
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2010, 10:33:00 PM »
I don't have the level of knowledge about the series and characters that Baggins does, and I've never worked on another fan project like some others in the community.  But I do know the games - I was practically raised by Graham.  KQI was the first video game I ever played, and then in awe I discovered that video games could have sequels when I found a copy of KQII on a store shelf and swored myself to a life of servitude to my parents to convince them to buy it for me.  I learned how to program a DOS Boot disk when I was only 9 years old so that I could play KQIII, and then taught myself how to install a sound card and upgrade a power supply for KQIV's music.  My parents made me save up and buy my own computer for KQV (so I'd stop messing around with theirs) which I later had to learn to install a CD-ROM in to play the version of KQVI I picked up.  I can literally trace a number of major decisions in my life back to those early experiences I had thanks to the King's Quest games.  This project brings me back to those days, and I hope it'll do the same for others as well.

Well now--I think we understand each other.  My childhood growth experiences with KQ (and Lucasarts games) is practically a mirror image of that paragraph.  :)  When all my friends in school were playing Megaman and Mario on the NES--I was swinging and punching my way through Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, learning to type with KQ4, and dying over and over and OVER again in KQ5.  lol.

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2010, 10:38:19 PM »
This project brings me back to those days, and I hope it'll do the same for others as well.

That's the very feeling I want to experience. If nostalgia sets in when I'm playing TSL, then in my eyes, you guys have accomplished what you have set out for.
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2010, 10:42:38 PM »
This project brings me back to those days, and I hope it'll do the same for others as well.

That's the very feeling I want to experience. If nostalgia sets in when I'm playing TSL, then in my eyes, you guys have accomplished what you have set out for.


I'd love to experience that childlike joy again, too.  But more than that, I'd hate to have it tarnished.  So, I have to stay wary and keep my expectations at a reasonable level.  Looking on the bright side, at least Episode 1 has set me up to be pleasantly surprised by the rest of the game.   :P

Offline waltzdancing

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #69 on: August 17, 2010, 10:44:05 PM »
When I played the beta build of episode 1, I cried when I saw the opening movie. I can't stop smiling as I play the others, (unless I have run into a bug and need to try to replicate.) I can only say, trust me and give the game a chance. You might be surprised.

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #70 on: August 17, 2010, 10:55:15 PM »
Seriously, my first gaming memory is of getting killed by that stupid rock in KQ1, thinking (as a 7-year-old) that Graham was a moron for pulling the rock toward him, and then being completely and totally fascinated by the game knowing that if you pushed from the other side the rock wouldn't kill you.

I can honestly say that after playing through all five episodes, I really do care about the royal family more than I did before.  I think that most people who play through to the end will appreciate the story we're weaving here.
Weldon Hathaway

Offline waltzdancing

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2010, 10:57:15 PM »
LOL. That's my first memory of KQ1 as well! Stupid rock.

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2010, 11:42:50 PM »
Seriously, my first gaming memory is of getting killed by that stupid rock in KQ1, thinking (as a 7-year-old) that Graham was a moron for pulling the rock toward him, and then being completely and totally fascinated by the game knowing that if you pushed from the other side the rock wouldn't kill you.

I can honestly say that after playing through all five episodes, I really do care about the royal family more than I did before.  I think that most people who play through to the end will appreciate the story we're weaving here.

I'm holding you to it, Weldon.  :P

If I am impressed by Episode 2, I'll give you one Interwebz Cookie.  ::)



EDIT: And incidentally, that was my 250th post. I'm now a Royal Heir.  ;D
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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2010, 11:46:50 PM »
Only if that's actual size.  If it's enlarged to show detail I'm going to replace a critical inventory item with a suffer smiley in just your download.
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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2010, 12:23:52 AM »
You know what would stop all this bickering and end most of the arguments here?

A release of episode 2! :D

*wink wink*

Offline Baggins

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2010, 01:51:46 AM »
Quote
Monkey Island was originally done by LucasArts. So in a way, it's similar to what we are debating right now (if hypothetically Phoenix Online were to get the rights to Sierra's games). I liked the new environment and the different atmosphere that Monkey Island was known for. Telltale games brought back an old cast as well as introduce new faces. However, I was overall disappointed with the ending (not going to spoil anything). So Telltale Games took a series that wasn't theirs and tried to establish themselves as a game developer by putting their spin on it. Would it be wise to completely disregard any other game that they attempt to make? Hardly. If anything, it'd be wise to pay close attention to them. Cause while I can sit back and point out the flaws, I can easily sit back and ponder the advantages that the game had.
Actually to be fair, this is not a good analogy btw. You are looking in the wrong direction.

Tales of Monkey Island was a game jointly produced by Lucasarts and Tell Tale games (its not the first time Lucasarts has worked with 3rd party companies in the past, BTW). Don't believe this, I suggest you look at the logo screen again. Telltale didn't buy the franchise from Lucasarts. I don't think Lucasarts would ever would sell it as it is one of there most popular IPs.

Also many of the people involved with that game were the original people behind earlier Lucasarts and Monkey Island games (they even consulted Ron Gilbert who hadn't been involved with the series since MI2, and by later episodes he was directly involved). You might not know this but many of the designers of Tell Tale originally worked at Lucasarts on the Lucasarts adventures. So its essentially what became of Lucasarts adventure division. Its not exactly "another unrelated company taking over the IP". Its people with experience with those IPs, and should have the right to continue those IPs. For that matter, they even were able to get many of the same actors from CMI to reprise there roles.

Now me personally I think I kinda agree with DMD on this particular issue, I don't so much care if a third party creates an official continuation of an adventure game series, but I think its important that some of the original designers behind the IP is involved with making the games. Even games that stayed with the company such as last 2-3 Leisure Suit Larry games aren't as good as the originals, mainly due in part because they didn't have Al Lowe's involvement. He really is the only one that knows that franchise. As I understand it another company now has the right to that series, their first game using the IP was just as abysmal as the first non Al Lowe version, if not worse. Although personally its not really my cup of tea as far as the Sierraventures. Or the Dr. Brain series, the later games which lacked Lori and Corey Cole's involvement, pale in comparison to the two original games in the series.

There are MI fans that argue that Curse of Monkey Island and Escape of Monkey Island are not essentially authentic games in the series because they lacked Ron Gilbert's hand. Thus for many it was important that he returned for Tales of Monkey Island.

With Space Quest, I'd want Scott Murphy, Mark Crow, or at least Josh Mandel behind the game and its story. Jane Jensen would have to be behind a new Gabriel Knight, etc. I mean more than a just a "blessing" (however congratulations would have to be in order for that honor).

Without the direct involvement of the original writers and designers the game has the potential of being only poorly conceived derivitive work (the crappy LSL come to mind) at best a "spiritual successor". Another case in point look at the latter Simon the Sorcerers, a German company bought the IP from Adventuresoft, they destroyed several aspects of the series, for example they made Simon, American, when he was originally British... I've heard that there are actually other continuity issues between the classic series and the later sequels.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 02:23:21 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2010, 02:15:37 AM »
Quote
Monkey Island was originally done by LucasArts. So in a way, it's similar to what we are debating right now (if hypothetically Phoenix Online were to get the rights to Sierra's games). I liked the new environment and the different atmosphere that Monkey Island was known for. Telltale games brought back an old cast as well as introduce new faces. However, I was overall disappointed with the ending (not going to spoil anything). So Telltale Games took a series that wasn't theirs and tried to establish themselves as a game developer by putting their spin on it. Would it be wise to completely disregard any other game that they attempt to make? Hardly. If anything, it'd be wise to pay close attention to them. Cause while I can sit back and point out the flaws, I can easily sit back and ponder the advantages that the game had.
Actually to be fair, this is not a good analogy btw. You are looking in the wrong direction.

Tales of Monkey Island was a game jointly produced by Lucasarts and Tell Tale games (its not the first time Lucasarts has worked with 3rd party companies in the past, BTW). Don't believe this, I suggest you look at the logo screen again. Telltale didn't buy the franchise from Lucasarts. I don't think Lucasarts would ever would sell it as it is one of there most popular IPs.

Also many of the people involved with that game were the original people behind earlier Lucasarts and Monkey Island games (they even consulted Ron Gilbert who hadn't been involved with the series since MI2, and by later episodes he was directly involved). You might not know this but many of the designers of Tell Tale originally worked at Lucasarts on the Lucasarts adventures. So its essentially what became of Lucasarts adventure division. Its not exactly "another unrelated company taking over the IP". Its people with experience with those IPs, and should have the right to continue those IPs. For that matter, they even were able to get many of the same actors from CMI to reprise there roles.


I'm well aware. I wasn't actually trying to compare Phoenix Online and Telltale Games, I was trying to compare an experience that I had with Telltale Games and an experience that I'm going to have with Phoenix Online. I loosely connected the two companies for the sake of argument, but I'm not going to bother arguing the fine details. I know the fine details, I just chose to ignore them so I can reiterate my point: "Wait for the other episodes to come out."
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline Baggins

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2010, 02:18:24 AM »
I agree, I think its too early to judge TSL on its own merits, or against the official games in the series. Especially from such a short non-game episode.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2010, 02:21:45 AM »
I agree, I think its too early to judge TSL on its own merits, or against the official games in the series. Especially from such a short non-game episode.

Indeed. That's why I can't wait for Episode 2. I'll finally be able to form an opinion based off of an actual game experience.
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline Big C from Cauney island

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #79 on: August 18, 2010, 08:11:02 AM »
I agree with a lot of whats being said. I DID play nintendo, usually metroid. I would sneak into my brothers room before he got up for school and play it with the volume down. He was like 2 feet from the screen and still asleep. True navy seal stealth mode.  I was also huge on Commodore 64, and zillions of hours on Pitfall 2 and ghostbusters.  Great memories.  But Kings quest, and the sierra games in general, was another great chapter in my life.  The KQ1 rock yea, but KQ3 was absolutely insanely hard. This is the first one I really got into. But, to stick to the thread, and reinventing the wheel, I believe that the story REALLY left off at KQ6.  So, having the same characters, same islands, but revamped plus with extra is cool and it makes sense to me.  I always wanted that story to really get resolved. And I respect peoples passion for the game and how it should be, but keep in mind its the creator's game and their take on it.  At this point, they have the generally idea of whatsa going on and its really cool that they are trying to fix the critiques issues.  As a fan to more fans, let them do what they are doing and in the general direction they want to go. Critiques are fine, but not at this point to tell them to "change direction".  With all respect.
 

anything