Author Topic: Re-inventing the Wheel  (Read 61226 times)

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #80 on: August 18, 2010, 08:19:19 AM »
Just wanted to point out that nobody is demanding anything--rather, we've just been debating whether the change in direction was a wise move, and if it would ultimately be good for the series if it continued in this direction in hypothetical future commercial outings.  :)  Some people have rather vehemently expressed their distaste--but I don't think anyone seriously expects major story changes to be made.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 08:21:03 AM by Lambonius »

Offline Cez

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #81 on: August 18, 2010, 11:29:47 AM »
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Monkey Island was originally done by LucasArts. So in a way, it's similar to what we are debating right now (if hypothetically Phoenix Online were to get the rights to Sierra's games). I liked the new environment and the different atmosphere that Monkey Island was known for. Telltale games brought back an old cast as well as introduce new faces. However, I was overall disappointed with the ending (not going to spoil anything). So Telltale Games took a series that wasn't theirs and tried to establish themselves as a game developer by putting their spin on it. Would it be wise to completely disregard any other game that they attempt to make? Hardly. If anything, it'd be wise to pay close attention to them. Cause while I can sit back and point out the flaws, I can easily sit back and ponder the advantages that the game had.
Actually to be fair, this is not a good analogy btw. You are looking in the wrong direction.

Tales of Monkey Island was a game jointly produced by Lucasarts and Tell Tale games (its not the first time Lucasarts has worked with 3rd party companies in the past, BTW). Don't believe this, I suggest you look at the logo screen again. Telltale didn't buy the franchise from Lucasarts. I don't think Lucasarts would ever would sell it as it is one of there most popular IPs.

Also many of the people involved with that game were the original people behind earlier Lucasarts and Monkey Island games (they even consulted Ron Gilbert who hadn't been involved with the series since MI2, and by later episodes he was directly involved). You might not know this but many of the designers of Tell Tale originally worked at Lucasarts on the Lucasarts adventures. So its essentially what became of Lucasarts adventure division. Its not exactly "another unrelated company taking over the IP". Its people with experience with those IPs, and should have the right to continue those IPs. For that matter, they even were able to get many of the same actors from CMI to reprise there roles.

Now me personally I think I kinda agree with DMD on this particular issue, I don't so much care if a third party creates an official continuation of an adventure game series, but I think its important that some of the original designers behind the IP is involved with making the games. Even games that stayed with the company such as last 2-3 Leisure Suit Larry games aren't as good as the originals, mainly due in part because they didn't have Al Lowe's involvement. He really is the only one that knows that franchise. As I understand it another company now has the right to that series, their first game using the IP was just as abysmal as the first non Al Lowe version, if not worse. Although personally its not really my cup of tea as far as the Sierraventures. Or the Dr. Brain series, the later games which lacked Lori and Corey Cole's involvement, pale in comparison to the two original games in the series.

There are MI fans that argue that Curse of Monkey Island and Escape of Monkey Island are not essentially authentic games in the series because they lacked Ron Gilbert's hand. Thus for many it was important that he returned for Tales of Monkey Island.

With Space Quest, I'd want Scott Murphy, Mark Crow, or at least Josh Mandel behind the game and its story. Jane Jensen would have to be behind a new Gabriel Knight, etc. I mean more than a just a "blessing" (however congratulations would have to be in order for that honor).

Without the direct involvement of the original writers and designers the game has the potential of being only poorly conceived derivitive work (the crappy LSL come to mind) at best a "spiritual successor". Another case in point look at the latter Simon the Sorcerers, a German company bought the IP from Adventuresoft, they destroyed several aspects of the series, for example they made Simon, American, when he was originally British... I've heard that there are actually other continuity issues between the classic series and the later sequels.

Heh. Ron Gilbert came one day to the studio and talked about Monkey Island. That was his involvement.

The only thing Lucas Arts did was approve the concept art for the main characters. It wasn't really a join effort more than an approval process.

So it was definitely more of a Telltale game than anything else, season written by Mark Darin and Mike Stemmle, and episodes written by a bunch of other different people. Not Ron Gilbert.  

The one person that was involved was Dave Grossman.

And by the way, if we were to get licenses, which is a very hypothetical thing, we would like to get the involvement of people like Scott Murphy, Jane Jensen, etc.

Quote from: TheReturnofDMD
As far as the 'blessing of the original creators' Roberta saying she liked Chapter I wasn't exactly her saying, "You guys are my heirs, this is what I wanted, your game is official in my book and is the way I envisioned a KQ9 would be"

Actually, those were almost her words: "it is almost certain that King’s Quest would have been relegated to a forgotten obscurity – its story left untold. Now, there is a chance that many can truly find out what happens to the royal family of the Kingdom of Daventry."

Her choice of words. Not ours.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 11:44:50 AM by Cez »


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Offline Big C from Cauney island

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #82 on: August 18, 2010, 11:34:56 AM »
I can understand that in terms of the future of Kings quest. But I thought that after this they were done with Kings quest? I remember reading that in some thread.  Anyways though, my main point was that even with AGDs and IAs remakes, I'm fortunate to have played them, they're good.  I would never ask the creators to change the direction of a game I'm getting for free towards the end of it's development.  I'm just saying for the sake of the creators to work in peace, because its already been stated that they want the game to continue its general direction.  And I know not everybody demands, but even going over the same thing multiple times when answers have been given is a little much for anybody.  But again, I say this with respect to everybody on this forum.  And I think critiques make the game better for everyone and help the creators with this and future projects.  But to keep going over the same thing is redundant, demanding or not. I think that they should be given some breathing space while they finish.  

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #83 on: August 18, 2010, 11:43:18 AM »
We're done with fangames after this, to be more specific. Which, again barring getting something going with the licenses officially and commercially, would mean done with King's Quest as well.

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Offline Baggins

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #84 on: August 18, 2010, 11:46:03 AM »
Quote
Heh. Ron Gilbert came one day to the studio and talked about Monkey Island. That was his involvement.

Actually he helped with the brainstorming of the story, and was the co-writer for episode 4 and 5 of the series. At least he's listed as such in the credits for those episodes.

http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,1024
This is the claim back before episode 1 was released;
Quote
Telltale even brought Ron Gilbert himself into the office for a few days to help brainstorm, and the team claims “his thumbprints are all over” the series.

That is certianly more than they did with CMI and EMI, in which he had no involvement, and was not involved with any brainstorming for those games.

Seriously as I pointed out before, its not hte first time Lucasarts has worked with 3rd party companies. They have worked with Factor5 in the past for example. The other team does all the work, Lucasarts just dealt with the concept art and "approval process". This is simply how 3rd party efforts work :p...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 11:56:09 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Cez

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #85 on: August 18, 2010, 11:54:30 AM »
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Heh. Ron Gilbert came one day to the studio and talked about Monkey Island. That was his involvement.

Actually he helped basic story idea, and was the writer for episode 4 and 5 of the series. At least he's listed as such in the credits.

Seriously as I pointed out before, its not hte first time Lucasarts has worked with 3rd party companies. They have worked with Factor5 in the past for example. The other team does all the work, Lucasarts just dealt with the concept art and "approval process". This is simply how 3rd party efforts work :p...

Where exactly is he listed as writer of Episodes 4 and 5? Cause, you know, I worked on that game and I don't exactly remember his involvement. Now you may know better, I guess.

Yes, but their involvement was very minimal. It was mostly on the legal side, and almost nothing on the creative side. The game is truly a Telltale game. They didn't play the games or gave feedback on them beyond episode 1.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 11:58:17 AM by Cez »


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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #86 on: August 18, 2010, 12:06:14 PM »
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD
As far as the 'blessing of the original creators' Roberta saying she liked Chapter I wasn't exactly her saying, "You guys are my heirs, this is what I wanted, your game is official in my book and is the way I envisioned a KQ9 would be"

Actually, those were almost her words: "it is almost certain that King’s Quest would have been relegated to a forgotten obscurity – its story left untold. Now, there is a chance that many can truly find out what happens to the royal family of the Kingdom of Daventry."

Her choice of words. Not ours.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment--I must say that those statements by no means mean the same thing.  Nowhere in her words does she say anything akin to "this is what I envisioned for the series; I'd like to see you continue the Sierra legacy in the future."  It really seems to be more of a "you guys did an admirable job--you should be proud of all your hard work" kind of statement, especially when put into the context of the rest of her remarks.

Offline Cez

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2010, 12:14:09 PM »
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD
As far as the 'blessing of the original creators' Roberta saying she liked Chapter I wasn't exactly her saying, "You guys are my heirs, this is what I wanted, your game is official in my book and is the way I envisioned a KQ9 would be"

Actually, those were almost her words: "it is almost certain that King’s Quest would have been relegated to a forgotten obscurity – its story left untold. Now, there is a chance that many can truly find out what happens to the royal family of the Kingdom of Daventry."

Her choice of words. Not ours.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment--I must say that those statements by no means mean the same thing.  Nowhere in her words does she say anything akin to "this is what I envisioned for the series; I'd like to see you continue the Sierra legacy in the future."  It really seems to be more of a "you guys did an admirable job--you should be proud of all your hard work" kind of statement, especially when put into the context of the rest of her remarks.

No, of course she's not going to say that this is her vision for continuation of the series --because that would be impossible as we don't live in her head--, but she is saying that people can "truly find out what happens next" which means she's completely sanctioning the story, whatever that is. She could have just said, "this is an admirable work" without having to say "now people can truly find out what happens to the Royal Family of the Kingdom of Daventry". Truly finds out being the key words meaning she's passing down the ball and putting it in our hands to continue the story she started.


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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2010, 12:20:42 PM »
I don't think we're saying at all that we're doing what Roberta would have done if she had remained in charge of the series, just that she likes the story we've put together and is interested in seeing where it goes.  And we are thrilled about that fact that she's saying that our story is continuing the story of Graham's family for people.

And yes, we're done with free stuff after this project - one way or another we're moving into commercial projects.  So if we don't get a license to do Sierra stuff for profit, then we won't be doing anything with Sierra stuff at all.

I'm definitely going to take Cez's word about the level of Ron's involvement over anything in the credits seeing as how Cez was actually there when it happened.
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2010, 12:23:11 PM »
It really wouldn't have made sense to Lucasarts to be directly involved on the "creative" side, considering that most who were ever involved in the creative side of the series were working for other companies such as Telltale games. Including Grossman, Michael Land, Stemmle, etc. Personally I don't care what the Ron purists, say, I'm absolutely fine with Grossman, and handful of other people who had been previously involved in previous games being involved with Tales, since its not just Ron who was involved with making "authentic" MI games imo. Grossman was equally involved back in the day. Plus it most of the actors form Curse reprising there roles, which is good for consistentcy in the series as a whole. As far as I'm personally concerned, CMI and EMI are authentic. I was never a "Ron purist" myself.

This is generally what happens in the 3rd party creations that Lucasarts are "involved" with, such as their work with Factor 5. Lucasarts generally does little with the creative process, but rather just works on approval/publishing rights.

Perhaps its your company just hyped up and exagerrated the involvement of Ron Gilbert, because they made it an advertising point in several interviews. At E3 and elsewhere, and they put him in the main credits in either episode 4 and/or 5.

http://www.destructoid.com/e3-09-ron-gilbert-contributing-to-tales-of-monkey-island-134843.phtml
Quote
Once the ink was on the contracts and we didn't have to keep the thing a complete secret from everyone in the industry, I called Ron and said, 'I'm doing another Monkey Island game.' Ron said that he was going to be in town in a couple of weeks and he'd cancel all of the things he had scheduled to do and just hang out in our offices. So, we had him for three days. He helped out with the story and designed a few puzzles for us
.

http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=86821
Quote
Tales of Monkey Island interview - Ron Gilbert involved but no Tim Shaffer, still not set release for WiiWare version
June 23, 2009 by RawmeatCowboy Filed Under: Wii, WiiWare
A portion of a Eurogamer interview with Telltale's Dave Grossman...

Eurogamer: You mentioned Ron Gilbert there who, along with Tim Schafer, played a key role in the Monkey Island series. What have they had to say about Tales of Monkey Island? Are they helping?

Dave Grossman: Ron did. As soon as I was allowed to tell anyone I called Ron on the phone, because I know the series does mean a lot to him, and he was the original guiding force behind the first games. He looked around and said, "Could I come down there and brainstorm with you?" And I was like, "Great! That is absolutely the best thing you could do."

So he came down and spent the better part of a week with us, just tossing around ideas. We bounced the broad-story stuff off of him; he had some comments about how we were handling Elaine in our first draft that got us to make some changes; and probably a few of his bubbles are in there as well. He had to go back to his regular job as the creative director at Hothead where he's doing his own game Deathspank, which also looks pretty cool. But he did get his chance to put his two-cents in.

I didn't wind up calling Tim because getting Ron involved turned out to be so much trouble - there's a lot of legal wrangling around that. I figured if I'm just going to be able to pick one of them, then it's going to be Ron.

Go figure, companies and there marketing practices :p... Always "bending the truth" typical I suppose.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 12:31:37 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2010, 12:24:25 PM »
Quote from: Cez
No, of course she's not going to say that this is her vision for continuation of the series --because that would be impossible as we don't live in her head--, but she is saying that people can "truly find out what happens next" which means she's completely sanctioning the story, whatever that is. She could have just said, "this is an admirable work" without having to say "now people can truly find out what happens to the Royal Family of the Kingdom of Daventry". Truly finds out being the key words meaning she's passing down the ball and putting it in our hands to continue the story she started.

Wow.  :o  That's a pretty bold interpretation of that statement--especially given the fact that she doesn't even KNOW the whole story of the game yet, seeing as she's only played the introduction.  You keep telling US to reserve judgment til we play the whole thing, but you assume since Roberta spoke favorably of the introduction to the story that she not only approves of the whole thing but is "passing the ball" and wants you to take up her mantle?  Am I alone in seeing the discrepancy there?

Seriously, it's statements like that that are giving you guys the reputation for arrogance and egotism.  If you want to come across as good-natured game developers willing to humbly talk to fans and graciously accept constructive criticisms, you really need to watch that kind of talk.

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2010, 12:29:31 PM »
Well (unless I misunderstand) Cez was actually there in person talking to Roberta when she played the game, so I think he probably has a pretty good idea of what she meant.  Roberta said that our game is showing people what happens to the royal family, that's not ambiguous or open to much interpretation at all.
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Offline Cez

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2010, 12:31:11 PM »
I don't think we're saying at all that we're doing what Roberta would have done if she had remained in charge of the series, just that she likes the story we've put together and is interested in seeing where it goes.  And we are thrilled about that fact that she's saying that our story is continuing the story of Graham's family for people.


Exactly. As much as you guys may think this has gone over to our heads, to us it's really an amazing thing, and we are very thankful for that, to the point where we have started to explore the possibilities of doing the same with other Sierra series. This is truly an honor for us that Roberta has said such kind words about our game, and rather than taking them for granted, we continue to work as hard as we can to make it something she'll continue to be proud of.

If we get the blessing to be able to work with other series, we'll do the same, and under a legal full approval, we'll seek the involvement of the original people as well, and hope that they are willing to work with us. We did seek Roberta's involvement early when we started, but she decided that she didn't want to be part of it, legal issues aside, she feels that if she steps in as a consultant, she'll try to control the game and get very involved --which is not where she is in her life anymore.

We continue to seek their involvement. Ken passed down an offer we made to them recently, again, because they want to enjoy their life as it is. We don't believe that we are the ones to hold the rights to continue these series, but, if we can get the opportunity to do so, why not? There are many people out there who would really enjoy to see more games in the series, as proven by what we've done with TSL, and what other teams such as AGDI and IA have done.

If we can bring the Sierra golden era back, why not? It'll open many possibilities to many people to rejoy in the Sierra golden age.


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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #93 on: August 18, 2010, 12:33:19 PM »
Well (unless I misunderstand) Cez was actually there in person talking to Roberta when she played the game, so I think he probably has a pretty good idea of what she meant.  Roberta said that our game is showing people what happens to the royal family, that's not ambiguous or open to much interpretation at all.

Huh--I was under the impression that she was sent a copy, which she played with Ken.  I'm sure someone will clarify.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #94 on: August 18, 2010, 12:35:48 PM »
Missed oppertunity, they could have recorded the interview, and put it online.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Cez

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2010, 12:36:06 PM »

Perhaps its your company just hyped up and exagerrated the involvement of Ron Gilbert, because they made it an advertising point in several interviews. At E3 and elsewhere, and they put him in the main credits in either episode 4 and/or 5.


I already told you, he came for one day and worked on the seeds of the ideas. That much is true.

But you said he's listed on the credits of episodes 4 and 5 as a writer. Now where is your precious source material. Because he was listed as something else in all episodes, and that's definitely not a writer :)

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/tales-of-monkey-island-chapter-5-rise-of-the-pirate-god/credits

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/tales-of-monkey-island-chapter-4-the-trial-and-execution-of-guyb/credits

Visiting Professor of Monkeyology   Ron Gilbert

He's listed as that in all episodes. Because he came one day to the studio and worked on the seeds idea. He didn't write anything.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 12:41:36 PM by Cez »


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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #96 on: August 18, 2010, 12:36:42 PM »
See I wasn't there so I don't know, but either way she said very clearly that TSL continues the series storyline.  She'll definitely get to play the other episodes as well, and hopefully she'll continue to like where the story goes - I don't know how much of the rest of the story she's aware of at this point.
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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2010, 12:38:18 PM »
Well (unless I misunderstand) Cez was actually there in person talking to Roberta when she played the game, so I think he probably has a pretty good idea of what she meant.  Roberta said that our game is showing people what happens to the royal family, that's not ambiguous or open to much interpretation at all.

Huh--I was under the impression that she was sent a copy, which she played with Ken.  I'm sure someone will clarify.


No, that's not true. I wasn't there. I would have peed my pants :P

But seriously, I read that again and yes, it sounded a bit arrogant to say the least, which is why I posted again down below.


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Offline Baggins

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2010, 12:38:53 PM »
Quote
I already told you, he came for one day and worked on the seeds of the ideas. That much is true.

So it was one day? Then in interviews they claimed he visited for a "few days", "three days",  to a "better part of a week"?

Quote
So he came down and spent the better part of a week with us, just tossing around ideas.

Seriously, people can't keep there stories straight, LOL. Ahh the fun in marketing and "hyping".

In anycase, guess your right about the credits, I must have misread. Sorry for hte confusion.

In anycase its still cool if the interviews are telling hte truth that he had his say in bits of the story, and even got to add a few puzzles into the game, and whatever he added to Elain's story.
 
Quote
So, we had him for three days. He helped out with the story and designed a few puzzles for us

But I suppose Grossman or whoever the interview was with could be lieing? Cez seem to be the expert on this.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 12:46:01 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2010, 12:41:49 PM »
Aw bummer I did think that somebody from the team got to be there for that, too bad!  Oh well, maybe for one of the other episodes or something...  Though I can't really blame them for wanting to stay out - they're probably enjoying retirement and whatever it is they're up to these days.
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