Re-inventing the Wheel

[Cez]

I already told you, he came for one day and worked on the seeds of the ideas. That much is true.

So it was one day? Then in interviews they claimed he visited for a few days, to a better part of a week?

So he came down and spent the better part of a week with us, just tossing around ideas.

Seriously, people can't keep there stories straight, LOL. Ahh the fun in marketing and "hyping".

He may have worked with Grossman for 2 or 3 days, but I remember him being one day in the studio --I could be wrong on that one--. But he was definitely not involved in writing episodes 4 and 5. At that point he had absolutely no involvement in the game, which is what I was mostly taken aback by your comments of how sure you were of how he wrote those episodes.

[Cez]

The other thing to take in consideration here is that while it's fun to do fangames and such, you would have to consider that TSL could have been done in the better part of 1 to 1 and half years instead of 8.

What's also important to consider is that a project such as SQ7.org would have probably seen the light of day instead of going nowhere --same with Hero6.

What's also most important is that you can see these games on different consoles, with better graphics, and better technology.

In my opinion, there's a lot to be gained from it.

[Baggins]

I never claimed to be an expert in Monkey Island. Unfortunately it seems there was alot of hyping going on, and misinformed previewers, etc, which I got the faulty information from. It doesn't seem though that you were all that impressed that thrilled by Ron's "visit" (or visits) all that much. Whereas for some of the previewers it was something they kept on talking about, hyping and stressing, as did Grossman in several interviews :p... as if it was something impressive.

Oh well guess its just a matter of opinions.

[Cez]

No, of course she's not going to say that this is her vision for continuation of the series --because that would be impossible as we don't live in her head--, but she is saying that people can "truly find out what happens next" which means she's completely sanctioning the story, whatever that is. She could have just said, "this is an admirable work" without having to say "now people can truly find out what happens to the Royal Family of the Kingdom of Daventry". Truly finds out being the key words meaning she's passing down the ball and putting it in our hands to continue the story she started.

Wow.    That's a pretty bold interpretation of that statement--especially given the fact that she doesn't even KNOW the whole story of the game yet, seeing as she's only played the introduction.  You keep telling US to reserve judgment til we play the whole thing, but you assume since Roberta spoke favorably of the introduction to the story that she not only approves of the whole thing but is "passing the ball" and wants you to take up her mantle?  Am I alone in seeing the discrepancy there?

Seriously, it's statements like that that are giving you guys the reputation for arrogance and egotism.  If you want to come across as good-natured game developers willing to humbly talk to fans and graciously accept constructive criticisms, you really need to watch that kind of talk.

She is passing the ball, Lambonius, but that's the type of person she is. I'm sure that if AGDI or IA had done the same, with a project that was set on fire and got so much attention from the media because of its turbulent history, she would have said the same. When I said "us" I meant postudios, of course, but in general I'm talking about the fact that she passed down the ball to whoever wants to continue the story of Daventry.

In a different way that people like MDM, Roberta is a pioneer in innovation, and as such, she wants to see things moving forward, always did. That's what makes her so smart and special.  She could be doing a Disney game and a Horror game all at the same time (KQ7 and Phantasmagoria); She always pushed forward, and I'm guessing that, to her, if she can't continue the story, she's more than glad to let others do it.

That's admirable in any writer. That they don't keep their world to themselves but open it to others to come and do something with it. Ken once said that he would hire us on the spot if he had those rights --and that's why they are so special. Not because it is us, you guys are missing the point --it's because it shows how open to change and to innovation they are. And that's one thing that will keep us moving forward. Everyone has their own ideas of what Space Quest, King's Quest, Gabriel Knight should become (or not) in this day and age. We have our own ideas. Some other people will have different ideas. And that's all fine.

But killing the franchises because the original people don't want to get involved? That's a little extreme. If that was the case, we may as well shut down Disney World and all that's related to it to put an example.

[wilco64256]

The other thing to take in consideration here is that while it's fun to do fangames and such, you would have to consider that TSL could have been done in the better part of 1 to 1 and half years instead of 8.

What's also important to consider is that a project such as SQ7.org would have probably seen the light of day instead of going nowhere --same with Hero6.

What's also most important is that you can see these games on different consoles, with better graphics, and better technology.

In my opinion, there's a lot to be gained from it.

There'd be a ton of great things that could come from something like this.  No matter how good things get, a group doing work for free is always going to be limited in some way just by that one simple fact.  Go commercial and start paying people, and you find that you can work way faster (seriously, if everybody working on Episode 2 was paid and working on it full-time it would easily have been done by now) and you can work better.  And the multi-platforms thing wasn't even a possibility before like it is now - it would be relatively easy to port the work we're doing to console systems and Macs, but not particularly so when we're just trying to figure that stuff out in our free time.

[TheReturnofDMD]

The other thing to take in consideration here is that while it's fun to do fangames and such, you would have to consider that TSL could have been done in the better part of 1 to 1 and half years instead of 8.

What's also important to consider is that a project such as SQ7.org would have probably seen the light of day instead of going nowhere --same with Hero6.

What's also most important is that you can see these games on different consoles, with better graphics, and better technology.

In my opinion, there's a lot to be gained from it.

If I recall correctly, SQ7 stopped because they refused to turn over the rights to their work to Vivendi. If a commercial license had been gotten, would not Vivendi (and now, Activision) have the rights to what they made anyway? Vivendi/Activision at the end of the day still owns the rights.

As to Hero6--I never really followed that project, so I can't comment.

And as far as time wise, haven't you said a big part of that was you guys being overly ambitious with the original size of the story? I mean even if you had a commercial license, I truly doubt Activison would give you a million dollar budget to work on a long dead series in a just as dead (commercially) genre.

As far as consoles and better graphics--You're dealing with a group of people who were happy with VGA games. I really doubt playing a sequel with the latest 3D graphics would matter, because when it comes to 3D, what looks really nice now will look blocky and crappy to whatever comes out in a few years anyway.

I think there's more to be gained for the series to unofficially in the hands of all than ''officially'' in the hands one. Since Roberta isn't ever coming back on board--She and Ken are happily enjoying retirement, and she's made this statement many times, and you youself have said you had bad blood with Josh (I believe over the direction of the project or story ideas), I doubt he would jump on board, and according to Roberta, Josh is the only other person besides her that ''knows KQ'' as much as her. People say what they will about Jane or Lorelei Shannon, but both worked on only one game and inserted a lot of their own ideas--some even possibly without Roberta's knowledge (for example Roberta having no idea that the Black Cloak Society made into KQ6), but Josh was on board from KQV onward until MOE (Which according to Ken, she didn't even want her name associated with but grudgingly put her name on)

[Baggins]

I don't think Hero6 had anything directly to do with Quest for Glory other than making a new game with the same type of gameplay. They never released much info about it, but what they did release seemed to imply that it would have followed its own Hero. Completely different story with no connection with the rest.

So I don't know if it could have been "shut down".

Jane or Lorelei Shannon, but both worked on only one game and inserted a lot of their own ideas--some even possibly without Roberta's knowledge (for example Roberta having no idea that the Black Cloak Society made into KQ6), but Josh was on board from KQV onward until MOE (Which according to Ken, she didn't even want her name associated with but grudgingly put her name on)

Well Jane as far as I know only had involvement with one game?

Lorelei was involved with both KQ6 and KQ7, IIRC to some degree. She wasn't a producer of KQ6, but she was involved bits of it including the KQ6 hintbook. Its also claimed she helped write a hintbook for KQ1 (remake I'm guessing), it was these reasons, why she was chosen for KQ7.

Mark Seibert also was involved with quite a few games in the series (albeit as the musician), but that's one of the reasons why he was picked to help out with KQ VIII. KQ was only about its writers, but the artists, the musicians and everyone who made the games what they were. It was a team effort.

Josh Mandel's involvement with KQ was limited as a producer to KQ1 Sci, and wrote most of the text and diologue in that game ("inserting his own ideas" as you put it). He was a voice actor in KQV and VI but that has little to do with the actual game design (the games had already been out by the time he added his voice to them). Which makes him pretty much no more or no less different than Lorelei, Mark, or even Jane.

I worked on King's Quest I -SCI, the remake done in 1990. It was my very first project when I came to Sierra; the game had been languishing for awhile because Roberta was so heavily involved with King's Quest V, which was in progress at the same time. While I was officially titled "Producer," Roberta let me get more hands-on: I rewrote most of the actual game text, added a lot of new responses, and slightly altered some of the puzzles. The original game, groundbreaking as it was, was somewhat terse and brief. I tried to make it more fairy tale-ish in its prose, so it would fit in better with the much more detailed King's Quest IV and King's Quest V.

[TheReturnofDMD]

I don't think Hero6 had anything directly to do with Quest for Glory other than making a new game with the same type of gameplay. They never released much info about it, but what they did release seemed to imply that it would have followed its own Hero. Completely different story with no connection with the rest.

So I don't know if it could have been "shut down".

Well in that case, it was simply a game ''inspired'' by the style of QFG--Not a direct sequel or anything using anything owned by Vivendi/Activision, so they never would've have factored into it anyway. A lot of games are inspired by others but are their own unique works, without using the content or the characters of the original.
So I doubt than a commercial license would needed to have been obtained; They might have simply given up or canned the project for their own reasons--That happens a lot even with commercial games

(For example, Roberta wrote a game around 1991 or 1992 with a character called Allison--this story I think was supposed to be called 'Scary Tales' [though that might've been a working title for Phantas], which she cancelled for her own reasons. We know, though that the ''Allison'' story was NOT Phantas as on the design documents from it Ken put up she made a notation ''cancelled game'' and that Phantasmagoria was already known by the name Phantasmagoria as early as February 1992.)

[Cez]

The other thing to take in consideration here is that while it's fun to do fangames and such, you would have to consider that TSL could have been done in the better part of 1 to 1 and half years instead of 8.

What's also important to consider is that a project such as SQ7.org would have probably seen the light of day instead of going nowhere --same with Hero6.

What's also most important is that you can see these games on different consoles, with better graphics, and better technology.

In my opinion, there's a lot to be gained from it.

If I recall correctly, SQ7 stopped because they refused to turn over the rights to their work to Vivendi. If a commercial license had been gotten, would not Vivendi (and now, Activision) have the rights to what they made anyway? Vivendi/Activision at the end of the day still owns the rights.

As to Hero6--I never really followed that project, so I can't comment.

And as far as time wise, haven't you said a big part of that was you guys being overly ambitious with the original size of the story? I mean even if you had a commercial license, I truly doubt Activison would give you a million dollar budget to work on a long dead series in a just as dead (commercially) genre.

As far as consoles and better graphics--You're dealing with a group of people who were happy with VGA games. I really doubt playing a sequel with the latest 3D graphics would matter, because when it comes to 3D, what looks really nice now will look blocky and crappy to whatever comes out in a few years anyway.

I think there's more to be gained for the series to unofficially in the hands of all than ''officially'' in the hands one. Since Roberta isn't ever coming back on board--She and Ken are happily enjoying retirement, and she's made this statement many times, and you youself have said you had bad blood with Josh (I believe over the direction of the project or story ideas), I doubt he would jump on board, and according to Roberta, Josh is the only other person besides her that ''knows KQ'' as much as her. People say what they will about Jane or Lorelei Shannon, but both worked on only one game and inserted a lot of their own ideas--some even possibly without Roberta's knowledge (for example Roberta having no idea that the Black Cloak Society made into KQ6), but Josh was on board from KQV onward until MOE (Which according to Ken, she didn't even want her name associated with but grudgingly put her name on)

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I can spend 3 more hours here debating with you over these points, but the matter is that we are not going to stop in our pursue of getting to those licenses, and if you have such a big problem with that, don't buy the games. As simple as that.

[Cez]

In any case, I get too riled up in these discussions. I keep telling myself to step away from the forums, so that's what I'm going to do now

I apologize if I offended anyone in the process. That's certainly not my intention. We just want to make games

[wilco64256]

I'd disagree that the genre is commercially dead.  There's definitely an interest in adventure games being done following the old format, as we've drawn fans, comments, reviews, news articles, and requests for language translations from all over the world in the last few weeks.  So there's still a market out there for this type of game.

[TheReturnofDMD]

I'd disagree that the genre is commercially dead.  There's definitely an interest in adventure games being done following the old format, as we've drawn fans, comments, reviews, news articles, and requests for language translations from all over the world in the last few weeks.  So there's still a market out there for this type of game.

I'd disagree on that. A form of adventure game lives on--In RPGs, in Action/Adventures--but pure adventure games aren't commercially viable. An adventure might move, say, 50,000 copies, hell, maybe even 500,000 overall, but compared to a game in the ''big leagues''--which is where KQ was in 1990, let's say, you'd have to have figures like Starcraft II: It moved 1.5 million just in the first 48 hours, and is expected to sell 7 million through the fiscal year. That's what's big now. Sadly, adventure games are a niche market, at least in America, and market share has gone against the genre since around 1996 or so. There's a reason why even Sierra began to do fewer and fewer adventure games even while Ken still ran them (and he intended to slowly phase out adventure games, declaring the genre dead in 1996)--They were a dying genre by 1994-1995.

The last big adventure game hit in terms of commercial success (which, at the end of the day is what rightfully matters to a corporation) was probably Riven and that was 1997--over a decade ago. Big corporations like Activison don't live by wasting money on stuff that isn't going to make much money for them when compared to costs put out; it's why the Sierra brand was retired by Activision; It's why Sierra stopped developing interactive movies after Phantas II. It's sad but true--That's the world of business.

[wilco64256]

Well there's a difference between not being in the "Big Leagues" and being commercially dead.  Moving 500,000 copies of a game would be a total commercial success if it was put together with a relatively small team.  If you had a five episode game and moved each episode for $10 each you'd pull in $25 million.  A smaller team could work with that quite well.

[TheReturnofDMD]

Well there's a difference between not being in the "Big Leagues" and being commercially dead.  Moving 500,000 copies of a game would be a total commercial success if it was put together with a relatively small team.  If you had a five episode game and moved each episode for $10 each you'd pull in $25 million.  A smaller team could work with that quite well.

Well, for one, if you want to see how the genre is doing, let's see two things:

1) How much Tales of Monkey Island and other recent adventure games have sold
2) And more personally to your team, how many downloads Episode 1 (and then after all is said and done the other episodes of course) have had.

And $25 million, under a commercial license, would be divided amongst a 3rd party team and Activision--Which might not break even depending on the budget given. If 25 million is just for 500,000 sold, imagine how much Activision (which fully owns the copyrights and developer of Starcraft and thus doesn't share the profits with anyone) has made with Starcraft which is expected to sell 7 million. 500,000 to a company like them is spare change. And that's a maximum amount--I don't think any adventure game since the genre's peak has sold more than 1 or 2 million.

I mean, why do you think most major studios ceased to make adventure games by 2000, even though Myst was at the time the highest selling computer game of all time? Because compared to something like Starcraft, or Quake then, adventure games--Quality adventure games, with all of the fancy things like a 1,500 page script  (the original size of TSL if I'm not mistaken), hand painted graphics and backgrounds, quality animations cost a lot more than a game like Starcraft. Hell, it's why Blizzard abandoned their own adventure game.

Even If you go 3D, the point of having a commercial budget would be to have the best, or near the best 3D, right?--Not subpar or crappy 3D (in comparison to today's games)--If you're going to aim for lesser 3D or other high end tech stuff, there's really no practical need for a commercial license. I mean, if it isn't to have the best or near best that money can buy, than why have a commercial contract to develop 'official' games outside of simply having bragging rights or ego?

That's another thing: If you're going to get a commercial license in general, why does it have to be for dead franchises? Why not get a commercial license or even just go professional to showcase you own, original creations first? It would sound to me then like you're using beloved brand names to sell your own vision.

[Cez]

Ok, I said I'd stay away... but I just wanted to add one thing, because you are clearly misinformed about what deals Activision has gone into:

Tales of Monkey Island was a complete success and the best selling game of Telltale Games to date. The game did not have Mass Effect 2 3D graphics yet that did not stop it from being hailed all around.
Did you know that Activision published Tales of Monkey Island in Germany?
Did you know that Activision published "Drawn - The Painted Tower". You can go to Wal-mart and find it. ( a very small casual adventure game by BigFishGames)

As to how it works for Activision, well, I'm not going to go into details, but let's just say Activision doesn't really need to put a dime into development. There are many ways to cut deals.

I rest my case.

[waltzdancing]

Who's to say we aren't going to make our own games based on our own IP? We have on in the pre-production stages. Everyone here is arguing over something that hasn't even happened yet, so why keep beating a dead horse? This topic started as why would an adventure game needed to be reevaluated to an argument about how people don't or do like this, when 'this' hasn't happened yet. Let's bring it back to the topic and stop predicting the future about people who just have high dreams.

[TheReturnofDMD]

Who's to say we aren't going to make our own games based on our own IP? We have on in the pre-production stages. Everyone here is arguing over something that hasn't even happened yet, so why keep beating a dead horse? This topic started as why would an adventure game needed to be reevaluated to an argument about how people don't or do like this, when 'this' hasn't happened yet. Let's bring it back to the topic and stop predicting the future about people who just have high dreams.

I'm arguing over something that, you're right, hasn't happened yet, but it's also something which certain people are devoted--as Cesar basically said , you guys are not going to stop pursuing the rights no matter what--to having happen. Thus it is a possibility; One can discuss a possibility, especially if one feels that possibility shouldn't happen, or would be wrong. If it was an idea I simply pulled out of nowhere and made up, you might have a point, but when I see something that has a genuine possibility of happening and I don't agree with it, I'm not going to sit back and say, "Well..eh..maybe it'll happen, I'll just wait till it does happen to talk about my misgivings of it" Not my style.

[Fierce Deity]

Tales of Monkey Island was a complete success and the best selling game of Telltale Games to date. The game did not have Mass Effect 2 3D graphics yet that did not stop it from being hailed all around.
Did you know that Activision published Tales of Monkey Island in Germany?
Did you know that Activision published "Drawn - The Painted Tower". You can go to Wal-mart and find it. ( a very small casual adventure game by BigFishGames)

I've missed quite a bit of this discussion since my last post, but I'll jump back in right here. I too have to say that "Point-and-click" Adventure games are still successful in their own right. Telltale Games is doing marginally well for being an Adventure developer. Tales of Monkey Island was hands down their best selling game, yet they also had the Sam and Max franchise (I believe they just finished their third season of Sam and Max games) and they also had the surprisingly popular title, "Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People". It's amazing to see a developer do so well when working with a "commercially dead" genre (DMD's words, not mine). I'd like to see more developers get into the development of this genre, and in my opinion (more because of the attention they got from the media), Phoenix Online has a fine opportunity.

Also, I played Drawn - The Painted Tower, and it was such an amazing experience. BigFishGames did a great job. That ending really left me hanging though. I wonder if they'll make a sequel.

[Baggins]

Well there is still one more episode of the 3rd season of S&M, I think. Unless its been released in the last few days without my knowledge. I can't wait to see how this ends. Its the best S&M season, imo.

[Fierce Deity]

Well there is still one more episode of the 3rd season of S&M, I think. Unless its been released in the last few days without my knowledge. I can't wait to see how this ends. Its the best S&M season, imo.

I actually haven't bought the third season yet, but I did get the chance to play a demo for the first episode (I believe it was the first episode at least). Seriously the funniest experience I've had with a Sam and Max game thus far. Also, as it turns out, you're right (again  ); the third season has one more episode that is coming out sometime in September.