Author Topic: Re-inventing the Wheel  (Read 61388 times)

TheReturnofDMD

  • Guest
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #160 on: August 22, 2010, 07:25:14 AM »
Your a jerk, if not an ass, I rest my case.

As I said before "hindsight is 20/20", it always changes people's opinions compared to what they might have originally thought of it. People's opinions change, that I can accept. But completely ignoring insight into the design process so you can take an alternative perspective is hardly fair to Roberta herself. She was as far as I'm concerned pretty honest about the troubles they had during the development process in the Talkspot interviews and others. She never claimed it was a "perfect", and she did admit several regrets she had about development (those have all been posted in the development page, as I recall). Infact she didn't claim King's Quest VII: Princeless Bride was perfect in those same interviews either. Infact I would say that they were pretty unbiased on the issue giving both what they thought were strenghts and what they thought were weaknesses in the game. They even had a third episode where they broke it down pretty detailed fashion, including much of the stuff Ken was alluding to. Unfortunately no one seems to have that episode anymore...

As for if its a "Roberta" game or not that comes down to opinions. In my opinion the fact that she wrote the script and dialogue in the game is enough for me.

There is more to making KQ games than just the story, true (and some say that wasn't necessarily Roberta's strong point). Such as art design, and music design. But in general starting with KQ5, those duties were handed off to other people, rather than Roberta herself.

It seems most of the stuff KQ5 on up are a team effort and not just Roberta herself. There are a handful of names that can essentially be put on the games for having left their own influences on the series. Mark Seibert left his mark on the games since KQ5. Hudgins, Hoyos, etc, left there mark on the games, etc.

As for Temple of Doom, it's one of my favorite movies ever. They had no reason to apologize for it... I think all three have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Now if they would apologize for Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, I would accept that... Seriously I can't take there comments seriously if they consider Crystal Skull to be superior to Temple of Doom... That's just crazy talk.

I don't know what Roberta thinks of KQ8 now in 2010; She hasn't as far as I'm aware done a formal interview since 2006. But like I said, she and Ken (via Ken's words) seem kind of ambivalent on it--They don't hate it, but they don't seem to love it either. I mean if Roberta ever comes out with an interview and discusses the game and her current perspective on it, we'll know for sure. As far KQVII, well, wasn't her comments on KQVII, if you're referring to Talkspot interviews, 4-5 years after it was released? It was kind of dead issue by then.

As far as whether it's a Roberta game or not, I'll take the source closest to her that we have on that, her husband. We don't know how much of the final game 'script' was written by her--Sure, she's credited for it in the final credits, but as we know from other KQ games, the credits can be kind of misleading.

And as for the dishonesty part: I don't consider corporate tactfulness to be the same as dishonesty. Misleading? Perhaps. Dishonesty? No. Like I said with the Ken thing, in '97 he was assuring us that the move to CUC was great, after having transfered out of the games division because the way CUC was doing things upset him so. It's why he said he was the CEO long after he later says he was in fact. It's corporate tact--He wasn't going to tell us, "Yes, Sierra fans, you're all screwed."

That's not a tactful comment. It'd be like talking crap about someone at their funeral, even if the stuff you're saying it's true. That's why at funerals you always hear people talking about how great this or that person was--Even if when they were alive the same people said what a moron he or she was.

It's not just Ken Williams who does this; Everyone in the field of business, both entertainment and not, does it. And often times it's the right thing to do at the time. You wouldn't  get very far in business by selling pessimism unless pessimism is your product.

As for Temple of Doom, the official line as was stated by Spielberg many times was that Last Crusade was made as an apology for ToD; It's why it's so similar to Raiders in terms of plot elements (Christian artifact, Nazis as villains, tough 'heroine', design chase and landscape, scenes at Indy's college, Marcus Brody, Sallah, etc.) Spielberg and Lucas still kind of 'disown' ToD to this day.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 07:28:09 AM by TheReturnofDMD »

Offline Baggins

  • Read-Only
  • Magical Genie
  • *
  • Posts: 2554
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #161 on: August 22, 2010, 07:32:31 AM »
Well you can find interviews where Roberta developed a kind of ambivalence to each previous game in the series. Her view point was usually always, "look towards the present and future", and ignore the past. Her opinions of each game in the series changed as each new game was released. She actually mentions this in the Talkspot interviews as well.

That is actually a problem if you really want to know her original opinion when the game was released. You really have to go with primary sources, that were created at the time the game was released, since her opinions changed dramatically the further she moved from each previous games.

As for the script, she claims she wrote the final script for it in the Talkspot interviews. Unless you are accusing her of lieing?

Seriously there is a reason why I don't take Lucas and Spielburg seriously. Just look at Crystal Skull... if you want a good example why... Frankly, I don't take anything Lucas says about the prequel trilogy seriously either... Its a bunch of crap, and what he did to the special edition dvd releases are crap as well... So no to Hayden is what I say... As far as I'm concerned Lucas has lost alot of who he was in his younger years, he is not the same person.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 08:43:49 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

  • Guest
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #162 on: August 22, 2010, 07:48:07 AM »
Well you can find interviews where Roberta developed a kind of ambivalence to each previous game in the series. Her view point was usually always, "look towards the present and future", and ignore the past. Her opinions of each game in the series changed as each new game was released. She actually mentions this in the Talkspot interviews as well.

That is actually a problem if you really want to know her original opinion when the game was released. You really have to go with primary sources, that were created at the time the game was released, since her opinions changed dramatically the further she moved from each previous games.

As for the script, she claims she wrote the final script for it in the Talkspot interviews. Unless you are accusing her of lieing? Which case, I rest my case, you are a jerk, and an ass :p...


Seriously there is a reason why I don't take Lucas and Spielburg seriously. Just look at Crystal Skull... if you want a good example why... Frankly, I don't take anything Lucas says about the prequel trilogy seriously either... Its a bunch of crap, and what he did to the special edition dvd releases are crap as well... So no to Hayden is what I say... As far as I'm concerned Lucas has lost alot of who he was in his younger years, he is not the same person.

I never really lead every single line of the Talkspot interviews. The MoE development page is huge as it is.
 But if she said she wrote the script, I'm willing to take that as the truth. I wasn't there though. I was eagerly awaiting it.

Offline KatieHal

  • Designer, Public Relations Director
  • Administrator
  • Phoenix Groupie
  • *****
  • Posts: 6561
  • Gender: Female
  • Snark Advocate
    • Phoenix Online Studios
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #163 on: August 22, 2010, 08:41:13 AM »
Your a jerk, if not an ass, I rest my case.

Baggins, be civil. Name-calling and insulting others on this forum is not okay. This is a warning, if it happens again, there will be repercussions.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Offline liggy002

  • Staff
  • Royal Heir
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #164 on: August 27, 2010, 04:56:39 PM »
Ripping off the characters and settings from someone else's IP does not make your game "true" to that world.  If you wanted to do something so original and "true to your vision," you should try creating some original characters, not just riding on the shoulders of someone else's success.  

Jack, they are creating original characters.  The name of the project is "Corridor 9."

Offline Fierce Deity

  • Powerful Wizard
  • ******
  • Posts: 1506
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #165 on: August 27, 2010, 05:22:48 PM »
Ripping off the characters and settings from someone else's IP does not make your game "true" to that world.  If you wanted to do something so original and "true to your vision," you should try creating some original characters, not just riding on the shoulders of someone else's success.  

Jack, they are creating original characters.  The name of the project is "Corridor 9."

He was mainly referring to the "originality" of The Silver Lining, not any other projects. Still, I fail to see how ignoring the characters and settings of another company's IP would make the game "true" to that world. Without a cast of relative characters and a similar setting, the game wouldn't be "true" to the IP's world at all. It would in fact be a "fan-fiction" that is in no way related to the original IP. It'd be like dividing by zero . . .

MIND BLOWN!!!  :stars:
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline Baggins

  • Read-Only
  • Magical Genie
  • *
  • Posts: 2554
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #166 on: August 29, 2010, 03:33:10 AM »
Fierce Diety, while I think use of previous characters (I.E. use of the members of the Royal Family, and occasional character like Manannan, the wizened Gnome, Edgar & Cassima) is something that made earlier King's Quest games King's Quest games.

However, the settings were original with each game, as in there was a creation of an entire new kingdom to explore (with lots of new characters to interact with), with the exception of Daventry which was always fit into the game somewhere as either the starting point, or ending point, or in some cases both the starting and ending point in a single game.

This game has deviated from that formula a bit, by returning to a setting/land from a previous game, other than Daventry. That's not to say that Daventry might not show up in a cutscene or something later on, but this game has deviated because it returned one of the previous non-Daventry kingdoms (although it will be adding new areas to explore within than kingdom).

There were ideas to have completely new lands in the game back when it was three games, one for Graham, one for Rosella, and one for Alexander. But most of those ideas were cut as far as we know. We still don't know if the game will go outside of the Green Isles or not.

If this probably minor deviation from previous games formula is good or bad really depends on each person's opinion :p...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 03:39:44 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Fierce Deity

  • Powerful Wizard
  • ******
  • Posts: 1506
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #167 on: August 29, 2010, 04:36:46 AM »
Fierce Diety, while I think use of previous characters (I.E. use of the members of the Royal Family, and occasional character like Manannan, the wizened Gnome, Edgar & Cassima) is something that made earlier King's Quest games King's Quest games.

However, the settings were original with each game, as in there was a creation of an entire new kingdom to explore (with lots of new characters to interact with), with the exception of Daventry which was always fit into the game somewhere as either the starting point, or ending point, or in some cases both the starting and ending point in a single game.

This game has deviated from that formula a bit, by returning to a setting/land from a previous game, other than Daventry. That's not to say that Daventry might not show up in a cutscene or something later on, but this game has deviated because it returned one of the previous non-Daventry kingdoms (although it will be adding new areas to explore within than kingdom).

There were ideas to have completely new lands in the game back when it was three games, one for Graham, one for Rosella, and one for Alexander. But most of those ideas were cut as far as we know. We still don't know if the game will go outside of the Green Isles or not.

If this probably minor deviation from previous games formula is good or bad really depends on each person's opinion :p...

I realize all of that. I guess it was really how I was viewing the entire project. This game is being advertised as a "fan-fiction" game, is being made by a new team that nobody has heard of before, and is being given out for free. This may just be me, but my expectations were limited prior to playing the game. I understand that King's Quest had trends that progressed with each passing sequel, but the series was created and developed by Sierra. If Sierra broke the chain in the series, I could understand peoples' disappointment. However, this is not the case, so I honestly don't know what people were expecting from this game. I understand the logic of their disappointment, but the circumstances of the project change everything.     
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline liggy002

  • Staff
  • Royal Heir
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #168 on: August 29, 2010, 01:25:38 PM »
Fierce Diety, while I think use of previous characters (I.E. use of the members of the Royal Family, and occasional character like Manannan, the wizened Gnome, Edgar & Cassima) is something that made earlier King's Quest games King's Quest games.

However, the settings were original with each game, as in there was a creation of an entire new kingdom to explore (with lots of new characters to interact with), with the exception of Daventry which was always fit into the game somewhere as either the starting point, or ending point, or in some cases both the starting and ending point in a single game.

This game has deviated from that formula a bit, by returning to a setting/land from a previous game, other than Daventry. That's not to say that Daventry might not show up in a cutscene or something later on, but this game has deviated because it returned one of the previous non-Daventry kingdoms (although it will be adding new areas to explore within than kingdom).

There were ideas to have completely new lands in the game back when it was three games, one for Graham, one for Rosella, and one for Alexander. But most of those ideas were cut as far as we know. We still don't know if the game will go outside of the Green Isles or not.

If this probably minor deviation from previous games formula is good or bad really depends on each person's opinion :p...

I realize all of that. I guess it was really how I was viewing the entire project. This game is being advertised as a "fan-fiction" game, is being made by a new team that nobody has heard of before, and is being given out for free. This may just be me, but my expectations were limited prior to playing the game. I understand that King's Quest had trends that progressed with each passing sequel, but the series was created and developed by Sierra. If Sierra broke the chain in the series, I could understand peoples' disappointment. However, this is not the case, so I honestly don't know what people were expecting from this game. I understand the logic of their disappointment, but the circumstances of the project change everything.     

I really don't understand the logic of their disappointment as the first episode is only a small portion of the entire game.  It is akin to reading the cover and introduction of a book and saying "I don't like this book!"

Offline kindofdoon

  • Crystal Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3807
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #169 on: August 29, 2010, 01:29:54 PM »
Very good analogy. I agree.

Daniel Dichter, Production/PR
daniel.dichter@postudios.com

Offline B'rrr

  • Phoenix Groupie
  • **********
  • Posts: 11058
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #170 on: August 29, 2010, 05:11:38 PM »
I really don't understand the logic of their disappointment as the first episode is only a small portion of the entire game.  It is akin to reading the cover and introduction of a book and saying "I don't like this book!"

Maybe you do understand it then, seeing as the cover and introduction is meant to capture ones intrest. I have put many books away after the first few chapters, stopped watching movies after 10-20 mins. if it doesn't intrest the reader/viewer/etc then they are reluctant to continue.
~Mary Jane supporter~
~Legend~

Offline kindofdoon

  • Crystal Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3807
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #171 on: August 29, 2010, 05:23:50 PM »
I would argue that your analogy is faulty because Episode 1 essentially functions like the opening movie in KQV or KQVI - it only sets up the game. You wouldn't judge all of KQV or KQVI from the opening cutscene, and by analogy, you shouldn't judge TSL based entirely on Episode 1. Episode 1 was basically a drawn-out opening cutscene with interactivity. The actual game part of TSL begins with Episode 2.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 05:25:25 PM by kindofdoon »

Daniel Dichter, Production/PR
daniel.dichter@postudios.com

Offline Lambonius

  • Magical Genie
  • *******
  • Posts: 1839
  • Gender: Male
  • You wanna talk to God? Let's go see him together.
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #172 on: August 29, 2010, 05:43:33 PM »
I would argue that your analogy is faulty because Episode 1 essentially functions like the opening movie in KQV or KQVI - it only sets up the game. You wouldn't judge all of KQV or KQVI from the opening cutscene, and by analogy, you shouldn't judge TSL based entirely on Episode 1. Episode 1 was basically a drawn-out opening cutscene with interactivity. The actual game part of TSL begins with Episode 2.

Still though, Sierra would never in a million years have released only the opening movie of KQV or VI and called it Chapter 1 of the full game.  ;)

Offline kindofdoon

  • Crystal Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3807
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #173 on: August 29, 2010, 05:48:48 PM »
Yes, but Sierra also never released games episodically...

But if they did, I'm sure you'd be correct.

Daniel Dichter, Production/PR
daniel.dichter@postudios.com

Offline Fierce Deity

  • Powerful Wizard
  • ******
  • Posts: 1506
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #174 on: August 29, 2010, 07:10:31 PM »
I really don't understand the logic of their disappointment as the first episode is only a small portion of the entire game.  It is akin to reading the cover and introduction of a book and saying "I don't like this book!"

The ones who are disappointed with the game are basing their opinion off of actual factors in the game. The game is bringing the cast into a setting that is not original nor required. When people ask, "Why is Rosella getting married in the Green Isles?", the argument is valid. It makes sense that KQVI was "the most popular title in the series" and that the Green Isles is a setting worth implementing into a fan-fiction title, but that doesn't mean those who are disappointed are wrong. Also, when people are arguing that this game is not following the trends that Sierra had upheld for the series, it's a sound accusation. However, not justified, simply because Phoenix and Sierra are not one and the same. Like I said before, there's is logic behind their arguments, but they refuse to look at the title as anything less than a "King's Quest sequel", with no consideration of who is making it and under what circumstances the game is being made.

I'm not really arguing one way or the other. I actually want to see this game through to the end, but at the same time, those who are disappointed are not wrong about their accusations. You can't please everyone.  :-\ 
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline kindofdoon

  • Crystal Dragon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3807
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #175 on: August 29, 2010, 07:16:58 PM »
I'm not saying they're wrong, necessarily - just that they are judging the whole prematurely.

Daniel Dichter, Production/PR
daniel.dichter@postudios.com

Offline Fierce Deity

  • Powerful Wizard
  • ******
  • Posts: 1506
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #176 on: August 29, 2010, 09:03:14 PM »
I'm not saying they're wrong, necessarily - just that they are judging the whole prematurely.

Definitely. The whole, "Don't judge a book by it's cover" mantra works great in this situation, but I feel like everyone is entitled to their opinion. I understand Episode 1 is a prologue of sorts, and the game will (pretty much) start when Episode 2 is released, but it seems like there are some who are disappointed more in the direction the game has taken more or less, and not so much the longevity of the first episode. Like you, I would recommend everybody to play Episode 2 before making rash arguments against the entire project and going off the deep end with their ranting and raving. However, I have a feeling that those who are sorely disappointed with the project as it stands, will not be miraculously convinced otherwise unless Episode 2 really delivers an outstanding experience. Like many have said already, "Time will tell."
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

Offline Allronix

  • Silly Adventurer
  • **
  • Posts: 94
  • Gender: Female
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #177 on: August 30, 2010, 03:04:36 AM »
I'm reserving full judgement of the game until I see the whole thing. So far, it looks like you all have a solid grasp of the history and style, while making some nifty upgrades to the eye candy. It was very much like the first time the twin and I loaded up KQ6 and had our jaws drop at the rich art style.
Old Adventure Gamers never die - they've always saved first.

Offline snabbott

  • Beta Tester
  • Global Moderator
  • Phoenix Groupie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5250
  • Gender: Male
  • Fairy tales do come true!
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #178 on: August 30, 2010, 10:50:35 AM »
I think no matter how much we tell people that Episode 1 was really just a prologue, they're not going to change their minds until they see more - and I can't really blame them. Looking from the outside, I can see how people would say, "They spent 8 years, and this is all there is?"

If I hadn't seen the rest of the game, I might think the same thing. But I have. :D

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining

Offline wilco64256

  • Moderator
  • Omnipotent Being
  • *****
  • Posts: 3978
  • Gender: Male
Re: Re-inventing the Wheel
« Reply #179 on: August 30, 2010, 11:04:32 AM »
Yes it's important to keep in mind that all that time wasn't just spent on getting Episode 1 done - the others are all nearly finished as well.  If Episode 1 was really everything we had after 8 years most of us would probably just sit in the corner and cry as we thought about 8 more years for the next episode.
Weldon Hathaway
 

anything