Author Topic: Death traps with no warning?  (Read 17493 times)

Offline Jujuba

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2010, 04:20:52 PM »
There are few... so few ways to die in EP2 :(

Offline Melook

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2010, 04:21:20 PM »
I am fine with the death traps.

I find it ironic how there are grapes next to Graham when he gets caught in the key death trap. Why doesn't he eat them?
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Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2010, 04:36:46 PM »
I am fine with the death traps.

I find it ironic how there are grapes next to Graham when he gets caught in the key death trap. Why doesn't he eat them?

With Baby's Tears that actually cry, Rotten Tomatoes that actually insult you, and Iceberg Lettuce that is actually frozen, would you really want to test your luck with the grapes?  :P

Besides, he'd still be stuck after eating the grapes. He'll survive just a little longer . . . only to die shortly after.
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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2010, 05:01:16 PM »
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KQ5 - Don't throw the shoe at the cat.  Not only does it cause your death later, but there's also a good chance you may have to start the entire game over again if you don't have a wide variety of saves.
that was the worst thing in the whole game.

All the other stupid stuff in that game is amusing, that one is just stupid.

ruined my game many times.

Fully agreed - I replayed that one a couple of weeks ago and made that very mistake, had to completely start over.  We'll never have something like this in the game, that is just poor setup to allow gamers to progress through the game to a total dead end without any way of fixing it.
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Offline maatathena

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2010, 05:23:25 PM »
I see the OP's point that its a little unreasonable to kill us with no warning.  I died there the first time.  Even though the Mag Net was there, I saw no reason why I couldn't just take the key, since nothing indicated to me I might die if I did.  After I died, THEN I started looking for the way around it.  Honestly I am really surprised people would assume there was more to the puzzle, I would fully expect everyone to die there the first time.   

However, this didn't really tick me off since there was a retry button.  If I lost a half hour of play from the last time I saved, then I would be mad.  I guess what I am saying is, its ok to have unreasonable deaths as long at that retry button is there! 

Though I was a little annoyed when the spider killed me, considering I couldn't see it the web there at all, and I really wanted to talk to Bookworm!

Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2010, 08:19:51 PM »
That's where we'll have to disagree then I suppose - I don't believe that it is faulty design to have something unexpected happen as the result of reaching into a random hole.

I never said I minded "something unexpected". I said I minded instant death.

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If every death came with all kinds of warnings then there wouldn't be any point to them at all.

Which is why I said several times the problem could be fixed with something very subtle.

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KQ6 - try to go inland at the Isle of Wonder.  Whether you're adequately prepared or not makes no difference, you'll be pinned into a life or death sequence far more complex than getting this key out with no warning at all.

That's not a death trap. That's the beginning of the puzzle. Heck, if you're not prepared, you can still leave!

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KQ5 - Don't throw the shoe at the cat.  Not only does it cause your death later, but there's also a good chance you may have to start the entire game over again if you don't have a wide variety of saves.

This one has a dead end issue AFTER the rat is eaten; I'm sure you're already aware of the evils of dead ends. But the puzzle occurs between the sudden appearance and when the cat catches the rat, so it does not qualify as instant death, or even an instant dead end. Besides, they won't appear until Graham has at least one of the two items to throw at it, though I think many people aren't aware you can throw the stick.

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KQ1 - Go through the hole in the isolated area between the rivers without the mushroom, another warning-free game destroyer.

Yeah. But then, it's KQ1.

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Space Quest - Dozens upon dozens of ways to die, typically with no warning at all that you're about to do something dangerous, despite it looking perfectly safe.

I know what you mean. Space Quest I desert. Enter the skull and find Orat; you have a chance to escape. Try that other little cave close by, and an unknown creature spits out your bones. I'm not a fan.

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This isn't justification, I'm just stating that we're following an established pattern in adventure gaming that you shouldn't ever assume something is safe just because it appears that way.

Based on your examples, I'm still not sure you understand the specific issue I'm raising. I don't believe it occurs in the KQ games (especially the later ones) nearly as often as you think.

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2010, 08:38:02 PM »
On KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).

You can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.

In KQ6 you can also enter the catacombs and get killed several different ways without ever even visiting the areas you need items from in order to complete them.  The first time I played that game I had to backtrack to old saves and lose 30+ minutes of gameplay every time just because I was missing one item or another.  That place is an instant death trap several different ways and once you're in you can't just leave again - you have to back up and reload.

Also if you return to the Isle of Mists a second time unprepared Alexander will die.

Just a couple of examples of deaths that are totally trial and error in nature in the later games.

In any event, we'll still have some deaths in later episodes that will likely catch some players off guard.  Hence the retry option.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2010, 08:40:36 PM »
Yeah, as much as I think those type of deaths represent bad game design (in the old games, too), there definitely were quite a few in all the KQ games, even the later ones.  I mean, the KQ6 labyrinth kills you instantly if you go the wrong direction in the maze.  There's literally no way through it except trial and error save/reload exploration and manually mapping it out.

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2010, 08:44:54 PM »
Yeah, as much as I think those type of deaths represent bad game design (in the old games, too), there definitely were quite a few in all the KQ games, even the later ones.  I mean, the KQ6 labyrinth kills you instantly if you go the wrong direction in the maze.  There's literally no way through it except trial and error save/reload exploration and manually mapping it out.

Though I did notice - and not many people seem to catch this - that one of the graphics in the game manual actually is a general map of the catacombs.  There are a few rooms that aren't quite right but generally it makes life much easier than doing the full map yourself from scratch.
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Offline Jafar

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2010, 08:54:38 PM »
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On KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).

Actually, you can use the map to escape from any of the gnomes. When you come back, they'll just start their sequence all over from the beginning.
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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2010, 09:08:51 PM »
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On KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).

Actually, you can use the map to escape from any of the gnomes. When you come back, they'll just start their sequence all over from the beginning.

Thanks, I wasn't actually totally sure about that one.  The catacombs are far worse anyway.
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Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2010, 02:39:21 AM »
On KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).

False.

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You can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.

Also false. What?

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In KQ6 you can also enter the catacombs and get killed several different ways without ever even visiting the areas you need items from in order to complete them.  The first time I played that game I had to backtrack to old saves and lose 30+ minutes of gameplay every time just because I was missing one item or another.  That place is an instant death trap several different ways and once you're in you can't just leave again - you have to back up and reload.

If dead ends are part of the old games, and your only argument in favor of death traps is that they're in the old games, then why not put a few dead ends in TSL too? I asked this to the first response in the thread and it hasn't been addressed.

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Also if you return to the Isle of Mists a second time unprepared Alexander will die.

Yeah, this was my example earlier in the thread. I still find it rare in general though. And by "the later games", I mean it becomes more rare later on in the series. Aren't we all aware of how bad the overall logic is in KQ5? But by KQ7, the death traps are essentially gone. The only one I can think of is the cave in Etheria, which could have been fixed by simply giving the player a couple seconds to escape before the monster attacks.

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Just a couple of examples of deaths that are totally trial and error in nature in the later games.

In any event, we'll still have some deaths in later episodes that will likely catch some players off guard.  Hence the retry option.

I've already stated a couple times why the retry button doesn't completely fix it for me, though it is appreciated. That hasn't been addressed by anyone yet either.

Offline KQ5Fan

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2010, 03:24:44 AM »
It's already been addressed, just the answer isn't good enough for you apparently.

Death traps are a part of adventure games, and the retry button is there for the convenience of people that don't enjoy them. What do you want everyone to say?

Offline atec123

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2010, 06:26:11 AM »
You can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.

Also false. What?
no, this one is true.  just don't go into that scene.  also I am pretty sure that scene doesn't happen until you have the shoe, and I am pretty sure you can get stuck in the jail without ever finding the shoe.
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Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2010, 01:53:47 PM »
You can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.

Also false. What?
no, this one is true.  just don't go into that scene.  also I am pretty sure that scene doesn't happen until you have the shoe, and I am pretty sure you can get stuck in the jail without ever finding the shoe.

How is "not going into that scene" a dead end? It's still there whether you see it or not. A dead end is when the game is impossible to complete. Simply not standing in the right spot when it's still available doesn't count.

Plus, as I said earlier, both the stick and the shoe work.

Offline atec123

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2010, 01:57:00 PM »
You can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.

Also false. What?
no, this one is true.  just don't go into that scene.  also I am pretty sure that scene doesn't happen until you have the shoe, and I am pretty sure you can get stuck in the jail without ever finding the shoe.

How is "not going into that scene" a dead end? It's still there whether you see it or not. A dead end is when the game is impossible to complete. Simply not standing in the right spot when it's still available doesn't count.

Plus, as I said earlier, both the stick and the shoe work.
because you are stuck and saved and can't go back.  that is still a dead end.
I didn't know you could throw the stick.  thanks for that tip
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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2010, 02:44:06 PM »
You can trigger that dead end in KQ5 without ever seeing the rat sequence at all.

Also false. What?
no, this one is true.  just don't go into that scene.  also I am pretty sure that scene doesn't happen until you have the shoe, and I am pretty sure you can get stuck in the jail without ever finding the shoe.

How is "not going into that scene" a dead end? It's still there whether you see it or not. A dead end is when the game is impossible to complete. Simply not standing in the right spot when it's still available doesn't count.

Plus, as I said earlier, both the stick and the shoe work.

What atec is saying (and my point as well) is that it is entirely possible for you to get trapped in that basement without ever even entering the scene with the cat and the rat at all.  That's the dead end part - if the player gets into a life or death situation with no possible way to escape it qualifies as a dead end.  You can also end up down there having saved the rat but without the hammer, so you're still unable to progress in the game and you end up having to load up an old save or restart the entire game if for some reason you don't have a savegame from before you dead-ended yourself.
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Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2010, 03:16:04 PM »
If you haven't saved the rat then getting thrown in the inn's cellar instantly ends the game. There is no period of being able to control Graham with the false hope of escape.

Now, if you have saved the rat but do not have the hammer, then Graham will hang out in the cellar for a little while under your control, but after about a minute, a game over screen pops up. Technically, this is a dead end during this brief period, but the situation does look pretty bad, so it's clearly unwise to overwrite your old saved game.

It doesn't compare to the dead end you get when you let the cat catch the rat. It appears that not much of consequence happened, when in reality the game is ruined.

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2010, 03:26:37 PM »
Worst dead end game ever?  Codename: Iceman.
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Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2010, 10:45:01 PM »
I'm not sure if I'm following this correctly -- but I don't think shadyparadox is arguing that there shouldn't be dead ends or that they're not a standard part of adventure games... I think he's arguing that, from a storytelling viewpoint, it makes no sense to have a death trap that can only be discovered by dying. Where is the character's logic here?

One fix, that would only take some extra animating but I don't think would necessarily need any more dialogue or narrative, would be to have Graham able to take his hand out the first time he tries to grab the key. If the player tries again, maybe the hand is a little more stuck and he dies that way.
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