Author Topic: Death traps with no warning?  (Read 17495 times)

Offline Rick_Florez

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2010, 10:51:54 PM »
Ultimately it just comes down to personal preference.  We like these types of deaths, it keeps you on your toes.  Makes you realize we're not making it easy for you and gets your mind thinking.  For me its been part of adventure gaming since the early days and belongs in this type of game.  The fact that we realized how annoying it could be and gave you the chance to retry is a bonus because we never had it that easy in the early days.
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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2010, 10:54:54 PM »
Yes if we wanted to be blatantly obnoxious we wouldn't have the Retry option at all and just expect people to save all the time.  We still wanted to keep that surprise death element that was in the earlier games but without the frustration associated with losing a huge chunk of play time.
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Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2010, 02:08:04 AM »
I'm not sure if I'm following this correctly -- but I don't think shadyparadox is arguing that there shouldn't be dead ends or that they're not a standard part of adventure games... I think he's arguing that, from a storytelling viewpoint, it makes no sense to have a death trap that can only be discovered by dying. Where is the character's logic here?

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Quote
One fix, that would only take some extra animating but I don't think would necessarily need any more dialogue or narrative, would be to have Graham able to take his hand out the first time he tries to grab the key. If the player tries again, maybe the hand is a little more stuck and he dies that way.

I don't even care how subtle the clue is. Take the KQ5 inn for example. Before you step further into the room, there are several descriptions with the Eye command that do not warn, but actually egg the player on. "Graham cannot quite understand what the men are saying. Perhaps if he moved a little closer...", "Graham cannot reach the dog from here", "The inn's dining room is just a few steps away," etc. The mere fact that the game insists you simply walk forward is suspicious, if you're observant enough to notice.

Ultimately it just comes down to personal preference.  We like these types of deaths, it keeps you on your toes.  Makes you realize we're not making it easy for you and gets your mind thinking.

Sudden death without any chance to react does not involve more thinking than recognizing and interpreting subtle clues, it involves much less. And I can blame myself instead of you if I fail to heed the warnings.

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2010, 04:04:04 AM »
I'm not sure if I'm following this correctly -- but I don't think shadyparadox is arguing that there shouldn't be dead ends or that they're not a standard part of adventure games... I think he's arguing that, from a storytelling viewpoint, it makes no sense to have a death trap that can only be discovered by dying. Where is the character's logic here?

Yes. Thank you.

I'd have to agree to an extent. I died by reaching into the cache where the key was kept without thinking much of it. I was wondering why there was no hint that suggested the alcove was a dangerous trap. I figured I would have needed the Mag-Gnat for something, but I didn't want to overlook anything. So I took each step as cautiously as I could (using Eye icon on everything), and winded up with my hand stuck in a wall.

While I would agree that the death was a disappointment, I can't exactly crucify the team for making an inconvenient death scene, when they followed up with a convenient "Retry" option. I agree though, that there was no logic involved in getting past the scene (just trial and error), and it seems like many people (while others were able to get past it) had trouble with this scene. But after I got past it, I kind of got over it.
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Offline kindofdoon

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2010, 06:35:56 AM »
Why is this such an issue? There has been only 1 death like this in both episodes. It's not like it's happening on every other screen.

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Offline Baggins

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2010, 06:47:52 AM »
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On KQ6 if you trigger the gnomes you either send them packing or die, you can't just pull out the map and leave once they're on screen (I don't think, I could be wrong there).

Yes, you can leave using the map. There is a about a 5 second period before they try to use their sense ability on Alexander.
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Offline Jafar

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2010, 06:51:11 AM »
I think Shady does have a point, though. There's no reason for Graham to manipulate the Magnat unless he knows it's a trap, and there's no way to know it's a trap unless you get killed by it. It's just kind of an awkward story bump.

At least with the boat in KQ5, there's a line about Graham noticing the hole and deciding to plug it with the beeswax. (Though Graham won't notice it when you use the look icon.)
Here, the only justifications I can think of are that Graham is REALLY paranoid, or he decided to be a fancy showoff and get the key in style. :P
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2010, 11:02:51 AM »
I think Shady does have a point, though. There's no reason for Graham to manipulate the Magnat unless he knows it's a trap, and there's no way to know it's a trap unless you get killed by it. It's just kind of an awkward story bump.

EXACTLY the point shady and I were trying to make.  It's not that random deaths are out of place--heck, I'm all for 'em.  It's that this particular random death makes no sense from a story-telling standpoint.  Graham is not psychic.  He can't possibly figure out the solution to a problem before the problem ever even presents itself.

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2010, 12:57:26 PM »
I think Shady does have a point, though. There's no reason for Graham to manipulate the Magnat unless he knows it's a trap, and there's no way to know it's a trap unless you get killed by it. It's just kind of an awkward story bump.

EXACTLY the point shady and I were trying to make.  It's not that random deaths are out of place--heck, I'm all for 'em.  It's that this particular random death makes no sense from a story-telling standpoint.  Graham is not psychic.  He can't possibly figure out the solution to a problem before the problem ever even presents itself.

It's kind of like 'dramatic irony'. The player needs to know something to allow the character to proceed on the right path, when in a realistic situation, there's no way the character would know what to do. It's like when Alexander needed to get a lamp that looked like Shamir's lamp. The only way to know what Shamir's lamp looks like is to watch a cutscene. Alexander realistically had no idea what Shamir's lamp looks like, and made a really lucky guess. Clearly, this decision doesn't lead to Alexander's death (unless you forget to pick up a peppermint leaf).
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Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2010, 10:38:06 PM »
It's also the most interesting look lamp, if you ask me. Like, if I were to randomly pick a lamp without seeing the cut scene (or remembering from the cut scene) that would be the one I would pick. In fact, that was how I did it the first time I played through KQ6. :P

However, Graham is not going to by chance lure the Magnat to the key. It's just not gonna happen. :P
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Offline waltzdancing

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2010, 10:41:19 PM »
I wouldn't go putting my hand in a hole. Who knows what is living there, especially when it was on the only stone missing. It practically screamed, "TRAP". Oh well, what tipped me off too was when you walked past it and the magnet tried to pick pocket you.  :D

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2010, 12:55:36 AM »
Oh well, what tipped me off too was when you walked past it and the magnet tried to pick pocket you.  :D

Yeah--that was an obvious tip-off that the magnet was used for SOMETHING.  EVENTUALLY.  But not for the key in the hole.  There was no indication that that was a trap.  Seriously.  Bad game design is bad game design.  Why are we arguing about this?  Random no-warning deaths were bad in the old games when they happened and they are bad here.  End of story.

Offline Tolin

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2010, 07:53:33 AM »
Graham may not be psychic, but he HAS been around the block several
times before and has faced strange and life-threatening situations in the
form of the seemingly harmless before.  From Graham's perspective,
he's likely cautious in most situations... probably doubly so because
he's on the Isle of Wonder at that point.  I agree that the key puzzle is
a little odd, but the mechanic of learning-by-death was in the original
games just as much as it is here.  I'm not defending the mechanic,
because I'm not too fond of random deaths myself, but for some of
us it's a point of nostalgia just as much as the characters themselves.

The clue is a subtle one, but the logic follows fairly clearly for the puzzle
itself...  luckily I made the connection prior to having Graham reach into
the hole, but I can see it being frustrating.  I'll agree with one of the
previous posts that adding a small 'warning' scene if Graham reaches into
the hole with his hand would work well.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2010, 09:35:51 AM »
An extra scene wouldn't even be necessary.  One specific look description that says that Graham notices mechanical bits in the back of the whole upon closer inspection would be all it would take.  One line.  :)  It might even encourage players to stick their hand in the hole, kinda like KQ5 did by saying you needed to get closer to hear the innkeeper's conversation.  Even if that caused MORE people to die, it would be better, because the clue, however subtle, was there.  The idea of a subtle egging on of the player into a death situation would be even more in keeping with the older games, too, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 12:23:54 PM by Lambonius »

Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2010, 11:51:01 AM »
An extra scene wouldn't even be necessary.  One specific look description that says that Graham notices mechanical bits in the back of the whole upon closer inspection would be all it would take.  One line.  :)

I'm partial to the idea of there being no explicit description of the mechanism, but instead only have a gear or two showing. That would take advantage of the game's unique closeup camera feature when using the Eye command.

Offline atec123

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2010, 11:53:42 AM »
One line.  :)  It might even encourage players to stick their hand in the whole, kinda like KQ5 did by saying you needed to get closer to hear the innkeeper's conversation.  Even if that caused MORE people to die, it would be better, because the clue, however subtle, was there.  The idea of a subtle egging on of the player into a death situation would be even more in keeping with the older games, too, in my opinion.
this.

although I think it is kinda late for the voice acting stuffs, but maybe.  that is a good idea.
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Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2010, 01:03:58 PM »
I think it would have been a good idea, but I agree it's probably too late. I really don't have a problem with frustrating deaths, I'm just thinking from a storytelling point of view that's all.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2010, 01:08:38 PM »
Storytelling and game design is hard.  ;)

Offline Eike

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2010, 08:42:13 AM »
I got one that I don't know was mentioned. The lamp in KQ5 and what to use on the witch if it weren't for pre-cognition of that scene.

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Death traps with no warning?
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2010, 09:50:12 AM »
I got one that I don't know was mentioned. The lamp in KQ5 and what to use on the witch if it weren't for pre-cognition of that scene.

Oh yeah, that lamp one is terrible.  KQ5 is filled with those "gotcha" moments.  It's one of the game's primary weaknesses.
 

anything