Author Topic: The Ferryman Plot Holes  (Read 11452 times)

Offline OrangeShirt

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The Ferryman Plot Holes
« on: September 26, 2010, 12:26:35 AM »
Just a bit of a warning: This may contain spoilers to some players who have not finished either episodes of TSL. Don't read on if that is you. Otherwise, continue!


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One beef I had with the relationship between King Graham and the Ferryman (Hassan, apparently) is that neither of them seemed to recognized one another. Shouldn't Hassan remember Graham... vice versa? After all, he did bring him to the Land of the Green Isles for, and attended, Alexander and Cassima's wedding in King's Quest 6 (Graham even spoke to Alexander openly). Alexander and Hassan had a strong relationship in that game too, I'd say, so you'd figure Alexander would have at least told Hassan about his father, King Graham. But I guess having to prove "who you say you are" by finding a gold coin on the balcony made a great plot device and a cheap puzzle. (No offense.)

Another thing... That big bag of coins used to pay Hassan for Graham's "two days, no more" trip around the Land of the Green Isles makes quite the plot hole. What really bugged me about Episode 2 is that nearly half of the solutions were Graham flaunting his fat wallet around. Hassan should be holding onto this money since it is to support his crew and himself -- a fee for borrowing his ship.

Finally... When Graham gets his hand stuck in the wall. (Great death scene by the way. The trap was so obvious, but the solution went clean over my head at the last second! Perhaps I got too excited after thinking to myself, "That was easy!") So yeah, Graham is trapped for days on end until his pitiful demise. But wouldn't Hassan have taken notice? Okay, so he said that he got banned from going any further from the docks of the Isle of Wonder, lost an earing in the process, but Graham has his money. The Chess Pieces locked themselves into their own little world, they do not own the island, and no one else seems to care who comes and goes on the island. Surely Hassan would have at least braved himself enough to see if Graham was okay anyhow... right?


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If anyone feels that I'm wrong, if you have suggestions to how these are not problems, feel free to debate. I'm all ears... or eyes!... and am willing to hear you out.

I do appreciate what you all have done, trying to bring all fans of King's Quest a brand new adventure. I honestly do not mean to stir up any hard feelings. Unfortunately there are far many other problems with this game that makes it nearly unplayable for me -- continuity errors and awkward twists of the original games, sloppy voice acting, minor but visible bugs (freezes, animation nicks, opened meshes), illogical and rude solutions, so on and so forth. Many people have shared their opinions, both good and bad. But again, I really do appreciate the effort and I'm looking forward to the release of Episode 3. Best of luck!

Offline drunkenmonkey

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2010, 12:41:51 AM »
Didn't the Genie magic Graham and his family to the Green Isles. If you have evidence, show it.

Offline OrangeShirt

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2010, 12:52:01 AM »
Thank you for reading!

From what I remember, the Genie only fixed the ferry. That allowed the Ferryman to travel to Daventry and pick up Alexander's family. I could be wrong... I might need to replay King's Quest 6 once again and refresh my memory.

Offline Lambonius

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2010, 01:08:12 AM »
Actually Graham and his family ARE brought by the genie.  :)  The ferry just allows for local travel between the islands.  It's more of a smallish fishing vessel and less of an open sea long distance ship.  Plus I'm pretty sure it is explicitly said at the end of KQ6 (if you get the good ending) that Shamir brings Alexander's family to the Isles.  But I do agree with most of your other plot hole speculation.  :)

Offline Rick_Florez

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2010, 01:13:23 AM »
The royal family did not come by ferry to the Green Isles, it was indeed Shamir who transported them from Daventry.  This is also stated in the ending of KQ6 where Alexander says that with Shamir's magic they would be able to visit regularly.  This video proves it about 22 seconds into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YUKJFzgdjU

and if you want to, since the video starts in the middle of the wedding, you can check the part before for any contradictions :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbAjKRj4U00&feature=related
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 03:14:23 AM by Rick_Florez »
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Offline Rick_Florez

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2010, 02:18:35 AM »
Now as to the other issues you mentioned :

- Continuity errors :  A lot of care went into this project to be as accurate as possible to the original games.  We're all long time fans on the series.  But to quote a famous title "To Heir is Human" and there is likely some things we accidentally overlooked. 8 games of mythology is a lot to try and keep track of and a single reference in an obscure line of dialog can easily be missed.  We don't follow the extra back story in the companions mainly because we haven't read them all, the writers of those started making up their own ideas, even contradicted themselves and they basically came out with a new one every year.  I remember an early version of the companion that I got after KQ4 which had a short chapter on KQ5 and how no one knew what the future held but they would bet on a Rosella/Edgar wedding.  It only took 4 more sequels and a fan game to actually make that one come true.

If you do catch something however, let us know, if its something we can address we will.

- Awkward twists of the original games : Those types of things are part of any story that tries to create a bridge between a bunch of originally unrelated games.  And its actually nothing new to King's Quest.  The entire black cloak society concept did not appear until KQ6 and in a few short lines Mordack's character and motivations got revised.  Manannan and Hagatha being part of the society was never something that was even mentioned in the series.  Players started speculating on that because KQ5 established the Manannan and Mordack were brothers and by association that made Manannan likely to be part of the same society.  And honestly from that point on anybody who was ever seen wearing black was assumed to be part of the same society.

There have been definitely some new ideas thrown in the mix about some of Manannan's motivations.  New links have been created over items you may have come across.  And there will be a few more suprises to come that will likely be shocking.  All that being said and done all the events that happened in the earlier games are still true.  We haven't rewritten any of that.  In fact for those who explore episode 3 enough you will find that Graham has a pretty good memory of those old adventures and can recollect them pretty accurately to what you remember.

Whats likely to change here, is what happened behind the scenes, what evil plans were being plotted.  Things that were never really told but that you just assumed. And  ultimately that's the big issue.  People played these games a long time ago and have had about 20 years to imagine their own vision of how and why something happened.   So when a new idea is thrown into the mix its not always easy to accept.  However if you are willing to take a step back and are able to rationalize things then these new ideas are easier to accept.

Most improtantly and this is something that I always held to be most important is that the Royal family always be true to who they are.  Graham is still Graham, Brave, Adventurous and ever protecting of his family.  Rosella is still the courageous, good hearted yet spunky girl, she always was.  There will be a deeper exploration of Alexander's inner thoughts.   He is still good hearted though he does have some demons which will be explored in future episodes.  These are natural things that we can all understand.  We all tend to act a certain way for the majority of our lives especially with other people yet hide inner fears that sometimes plague us since childhood.  Just because you do not deal with them 24/7 does not mean they are not there.  Valanice is still a caring and courageous mother and though she is facing a great trial by the end of it those traits will see her through.

-  Sloppy voice acting :  Though uneven I would hardly say that the main actors did sloppy work.  A lot of heart went into these roles and you can tell.  There are some uneven issues even with Graham mainly having to do with last minute pickups done with a sloppy microphone.  I wish we could fly out to Pennsylvania every time we ran into an issue but on a project like this that's not possible.  I wish there was a magic button to make a bad recording sound better but ultimately if the source material has a problem then there is only so much you can do to fix it.

Also, and this is something that many people may have forgotten by now since it was a long time ago, we held online auditions for most of the secondary characters in this game.  The fan community was allowed to try out for roles and those we picked we're sent the script and recorded their lines on their own with limited if no direction because at the time Skype was young if it even existed at all. If this were a professional production an idea like that would never have flown.  However given the nature of this project it felt fitting and gave a chance for the audience to actually be part of this game.


Minor but visible bugs :

- Freezes : Technical problems are common even in big productions.  The game works fine on many systems but we can't replicate every system configuration.  Add to that the fact that due to the tumultuous production cycle of the game the engine uses some features which are no longer openly supported by Windows (Ex: OpenGL from what I've been told is not supported by default by microsoft which can be annoying since the engine is based on that technology).  The best thing I can suggest here is to flag it on our forums or emails us and we'll try to fix it.  If we can replicate it of course. Thankfully we have some great people like Weldon on the team who are actively trying to help those with problems on the forum.

- Animation nicks : Working in the 3d industry I know first hand that even on big productions animation is long tedious process.  Usually a production like this would have a dozaine or more animators working full time.  We have a handful of animators working part time.  We're bringing more people in and will try to raise the bar every episode but its gonna be a progressive thing.  

- Opened meshes : This game has evolved a lot over the course of its lifetime and sets have been used in ways they were never originally intended be used.  We've tried to fix things where we can but sometimes we don't have time or we plain just miss it.  If you see anything strange let us know, we'll try to fix it on the next update.  The nice thing about episodic gaming is we can do these types of updates between episode releases.

- Illogical. and rude solutions :  If you have an issue with a particular puzzle or solution then give us feedback on it.  Vague feedback doesn't do much but specific things do and we can use that to try to make sure we avoid it in the later episodes. The script for much of this was written 8 years ago.  We've learned a lot since and might not do things the same way now but its not like we're actively revising all of it.


In conclusion if you gain anything from this response is that we're open to feedback and we welcome constructive criticism when its specific enough to be helpful.  TSL is sort of a work in progress due to its episodic nature so the more we hear from you the better we can make it.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 03:24:42 AM by Rick_Florez »
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Offline Rick_Florez

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2010, 02:26:05 AM »
Finally on the Hassan things you consider plot holes :

1.  Graham only really gives him 1 coin as payment.  He does show him the entire bag saying if its not enough he has more which I always find funny because he obviously does not know how to haggle  ;)  So when Graham is paying everybody else its not with Hassan's money.  However if he spends it all he may not have anything left to pay Hassan if this journey takes any longer than the 2 days he mentioned.

Besides by episode 2 Hassan and Graham seem to bonding a lot more so he may not be as greedy as he let on.

2.  As for Hassan coming to Graham's rescue when he was stuck.   You're point is logical.  However its also logical to assume that Hassan realizes it a huge island and whatever Graham is doing might take some time.  He probably spent the night docked and when Graham never showed up at all decided to go looking for him.  Unfortunately by that point Graham had already died.  We just cut to the death box before he showed up.

3.  As for them not knowing each other despite the wedding lets keep in mind that Graham was in the far balcony apart from all the guests.  And since the wedding was ruined there was no reception where everybody gets introduced to everyone else.

Honestly I have never been a big fan of that puzzle.  Even Cez feels we could have done more with it.  I do have an idea or 2 on how we could make that work better and even include a puzzle involving the lighthouse.  We're not going to be revisiting episode 1 however but maybe in the directors cut we can do something about it.  Who knows, we'll see.



By all means if you come across such issues again bring them up.  We may tweak the game to fix the issue or we may come up with some colorful response to rationalize it  ;)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 02:31:34 AM by Rick_Florez »
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Offline OrangeShirt

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2010, 07:48:08 AM »
Thank you for the pleasant responses everyone!

Instead of playing through the game again, I decided to watch the best ending of King's Quest 6. My memory certainly mushed conversations together and threw in some sprites here and there. I did not see Hassan (although he could have been in there somewhere as somebody here said). The Genie did fix the ferry, but Alexander did also say that Shamir could help him visit Daventry often (again, as someone here said). So that breaks that little plot hole of mine. Ha ha!

To everything else, everyone has made valid points. Thank you!

This definitely gives me a better understanding of what's going on in TSL.

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2010, 06:32:50 PM »
Okay, so he said that he got banned from going any further from the docks of the Isle of Wonder, lost an earing in the process, but Graham has his money. The Chess Pieces locked themselves into their own little world, they do not own the island, and no one else seems to care who comes and goes on the island. Surely Hassan would have at least braved himself enough to see if Graham was okay anyhow... right?
I'm guessing that even though we don't see them, the Sense Gnomes are still around, and Bill Batter is on the lookout (every pun intended ;)) for Hassan.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline kindofdoon

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2010, 06:37:38 PM »
The sensing gnomes are actually on vacation, as the Four Winds reported earlier.

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2010, 06:38:35 PM »

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Offline kindofdoon

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2010, 06:53:52 PM »
Thank you Katie.

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Offline Enchantermon

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2010, 06:56:46 PM »
Oh. Oops. That's what I get for not keeping up with the news.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline Rick_Florez

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2010, 07:06:35 PM »
It should be noted however that the time frame the Four Winds takes place in is somewhere between Mask of Eternity and The Silver Lining.  It could be weeks if not months before the wedding.  So its highly possible the Gnomes are back from their trip by the time the game happens.  On the other hand after years of fateful service they may have decided to start touring the world and looking for treasure.  One of them did have a map in the pic in the Four Winds.  If that's the case they could be gone for a while.
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Offline Baggins

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2010, 08:40:20 AM »
Quote
We don't follow the extra back story in the companions mainly because we haven't read them all, the writers of those started making up their own ideas, even contradicted themselves and they basically came out with a new one every year.

Actually for the most part, each new one just added an additional game (a new chapter). Most of the chapters themselves remained the same.

The only minor changes that occured were to the introduction and World of Daventry chapters. The latter was just expanded each time.

The author, that's Peter Spear for the most part (except for KQ6 chapter, and co-writing the KQ7 chapter with his brother Jeremy Spear), added in his way out of the occasional continuity snafus by stating the world is "always reinventing itself", and is in "magical flux" changing daily. Actually most of the "continuity errors" that exist in the books also existed in the games themselves; I.E. Geography of Daventry (or the architecture of Castle Daventry) changing in almost every game in the series (among other differences).

There are also a few details that may differ from one's interpretation of the game, because there are proper solutions that all add up to the same point solutions or outcome. For example Graham takes the Nightingale from Hagatha while she is out of the cave (whereas equally possible he could have taken it from under her own nose), both outcomes are possible KQ2, and will result in the same number of points.

In KQ6, there are actually several ways to learn about the Island (first talking to the Guard Dogs, first talking to Ali, or first talking to the Pawn Shoppe owner), as well two ways of getting a "maiden's hair", and different order of sending gifts to Cassima, or when the gifts are given (I think its possible to actually give Cassima the ring through the wall if you didn't give it to her early on). Each of these choices can change certain elements of the game's story, and in some cases lead to minor differences in the game ending sequence (yet still offer full score). Thus each player's experience in the game may vary with another player's experiences (so there isn't one consistent solution/storyline).

Another good example is that there are multiple solutions (by a choice of items) in KQ7 in a certain situations that will both result in similar outcomes, I.E. the desert spirit will offer you the choice between two seperate items from his remains. Both can be used to defeat the scorpion but in completely different ways.  The novelization chooses one of those two methods, but a player might have taken another route.

There is also non-linear aspect to many of the game's storylines (based on the order player's may have solved the puzzles each time they play the games). So the order of when puzzles are solved may vary between players, and accounts. For example the moment when Graham/player saves the nightingale could occur before and even after talking to the Little Old Lady of the Antique Store.


Will any of these instances where there are two or more equal solutions, where you as a team would have had to pick one story route over the others, have any affect on your story (or other people's interpretations of the stories)? Who knows.

There are a couple of places where the books differ from the games, but that seems to be more because the authors were working with early concept storylines of the games. The authors actually even have an internal in-universe explanation for why there might differences between what is shown in their book, and what is shown in the game  (back to the magical flux, and the world being controlled by dreams). There were also a couple of bits in the An Encyclopedia of Daventry section that don't exact fit as later material was released, but most those were written as "speculation" anyways, and the author made sure to state that they were just rumors or speculation on part of people in the world or his own. This actually added more authentic aspect to the story in much the same way that historians and people on earth don't always agree with all the finer details and have alternative theories for what actually happened in earth's own history. Thus take one topic for example, and you'll find that two descriptions from two authors of the same events don't always match up exactly (as they both have their own interpretation of the events).

As a stand alone product the most of the editions are pretty consistent with each other (and most of the  inconsistencies are explained away within each additional edition).
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 09:02:20 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2010, 08:50:34 AM »
It should be noted however that the time frame the Four Winds takes place in is somewhere between Mask of Eternity and The Silver Lining.  It could be weeks if not months before the wedding.  So its highly possible the Gnomes are back from their trip by the time the game happens.
Oh good. Thanks; now I don't feel like a total idiot anymore. :)
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline Novem

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2010, 05:40:22 PM »
Btw.: What happened to the ship dock?

Offline KatieHal

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2010, 06:35:23 PM »
The ship dock? The dock is still there...do you mean how it was dry-docked on the otherside of that dock in KQ6, on the Isle of the Crown? If that's what you mean, then you can read about it in this Four Winds article. :)

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Offline atec123

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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2010, 07:45:49 PM »
The ship dock? The dock is still there...do you mean how it was dry-docked on the otherside of that dock in KQ6, on the Isle of the Crown? If that's what you mean, then you can read about it in this Four Winds article. :)
I like that you took the time to explain that.  I figred it was just a different design but now you have an explanation even if it isn't detailed. (about the land not being there.)
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Re: The Ferryman Plot Holes
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2010, 07:51:39 PM »
:) The Four Winds has all kinds of details!

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