Getting married in the Green Isles

[Enchantermon]

And really, you should save up the fire for when we reveal Graham's a cyborg, anyways.

And let me guess: Connor's first name is Kyle, he married Sarah and they have a son named John?

[Lambonius]

One of the reviewers for episode one claimed he was Roger of Daventry... Does that make him Wilco?

Lol...that's a game I would play. 

[Sir Perceval of Daventry]

And really, you should save up the fire for when we reveal Graham's a cyborg, anyways.

And let me guess: Connor's first name is Kyle, he married Sarah and they have a son named John?

Reese was Kyle's last name.

[KatieHal]

It's all part of how we get TSL to become a part of the Tommy Whestphall universe!

[Enchantermon]

Reese was Kyle's last name.

Yes, I know, thanks for ruining an otherwise perfect pun.

[crayauchtin]

I would absolutely define that bit in KQ3 VGA as a retcon, albeit a pretty minor one, since it in no way changes the plot of KQ4 or the motivations of its primary characters as you imply.  Strawman argument, by the way.  

No it isn't.
Graham's motivation for passing on the adventurer's cap was that both of his children had proven how very brave they were -- Alexander had just returned to Daventry from an epic adventure and defeated the dragon, and Rosella had (we can all pretty much assume, although I don't believe it's stated or refuted anywhere) volunteered to be sacrificed to the dragon. The motivation was to pass on his grand tradition of heroism to the two new heroes as a reward for the brave adventures just completed.
While, yes, months later that would still be a justified motivation; the urgency, the need, etc... those have all been worn away by time at that point. It makes more sense to be immediately following heroic acts. That may be small to you -- but it isn't. It's a major turning point in the series. Furthermore, Rosella's in an emotional state as it is at the beginning of KQ4 -- she just survived a dragon, her brother just returned, and she's about to (maybe) inherit the legendary adventurer's cap. Then her father has a heart attack -- yes, she impulsive but it's stupid even for her to jump through a mirror for a fairy she's never heard of before (and who tells her straight up that she can't go back without dealing with a problem she refuses to discuss via the mirror), ditch her family in a dire hour, and all before the doctor ever shows up. It's only because she's in such an emotional state that the beginning of that game never bothered me. If you let months pass, then it's not only.... "Gee, Graham, why are you doing this now? "Oh, no real reason! Just felt like it!" But it also makes me want to slap Rosella hard across the face. It changes the entire situation, so no -- that's *not* a small retcon and it changes the motivations of two MAIN characters. Not even villains. MAIN CHARACTERS.

But it wasn't actually a retcon because in order for there to be retcon it must be official canon. However, if it were official it would change the entire situation at the end of KQ3/beginning of KQ4 and make it utterly nonsense (without some adventure taking place in-between!)

No one on the PO team ever claimed, pretended, or tried to pass this game off as being official canon. It was said it was a "conclusion to the classic series" but no more or less than KQ2+ was called a "retelling of the classic tale". Both made it sound official (by your argument) by not including "unofficial" in the phrase. So, explain what's wrong with PO Studios that AGDI didn't do wrong? I fail to see a difference.
Was it because AGDI had already done a remake -- a remake in which the biggest change they made was giving names to the guards at the gate in an easter egg?

BTW, the term "personal canon" is an oxymoron.   

Hence the quotes -- it's a term we've been using occasionally on the forums in regards to the things people pick and choose out of the official game canon, the official Companion canon, and yes even fanon and to some extent their own imaginations.

I suppose "personal continuity" is more accurate (as Baggins said) but nobody likes saying "continuity" -- isn't that why we say "retcon"? (Or do you guys say it because you dislike "retroactive"?)

I like "panon" though.... So now we have canon -- which is official; fanon -- which is widely known (and sometimes accepted in places where it does not contradict the canon) but unofficial; and panon -- which is individualized to each fan and therefore is not widely known and is certainly not accepted.
Works for me.

[Baggins]

(we can all pretty much assume, although I don't believe it's stated or refuted anywhere) volunteered to be sacrificed to the dragon.

I think it was more or less she was forced to go by her father, but she resigned herself to it. I forget exact phrasing in the original KQ3 on the issue.

In the companion novelization for KQ4, it mentions she willingly went when the Dragon demanded her personal sacrifice, and because her father forced her to go, because it was for the good of the kingdom, but it wasn't her idea. She doesn't seem to have wanted to go. It even says later in the KQV novelization, that "Rosella forgave her father for taking her to the dragon", and that Graham has nightmares for the decision he made and forcing his daughter into that situation. There is more on his decision (and prime ministers involvement), and forcing her to go, in the An Encyclopedia of Daventry chapter. Related and mentioned in the encyclopedia chapter, and KQ7 novelization, is a bit about Valanice standing in front of her daughter's room with a sword attempting to prevent Graham from taking Rosella to the dragon.

It wasn't a straight forward "volunteer" as most people would interpret volunteer to mean. But rather that she agreed to go, but she didn't have much of a choice, on the issue, and was still forced. I don't think any official source specfically claimed that she "volunteered" (in that choice of phrase)?

and all before the doctor ever shows up.

Actually the physicians had already looked at the king, tried all manner of remedies, and pronounced they couldn't do anything for him. While we know there was about an hour between the start of Alexander's return celebration and the heart attack.  It's actually unclear how much time passed while she was waiting by her father's bed, and when she left for the throne room, and was contacted by Genesta.

In the companion it seems implied that there must have been at least several hours, though probably not more than half a day (probably considerably less) before Genesta got into contact with her. She got into Tamir about 6:00 AM or so, iirc. The companion suggests that between the time she was tied to the stake and the time she saved her father took place in the course of two days total.

No one on the PO team ever claimed, pretended, or tried to pass this game off as being official canon. It was said it was a "conclusion to the classic series" but no more or less than KQ2+ was called a "retelling of the classic tale". Both made it sound official (by your argument) by not including "unofficial" in the phrase. So, explain what's wrong with PO Studios that AGDI didn't do wrong? I fail to see a difference.
Was it because AGDI had already done a remake -- a remake in which the biggest change they made was giving names to the guards at the gate in an easter egg?

This was a quote from early version of omnipedia page that was created for TSL, it might have been edited in by Yonkey, though it could have just been a fan of the team, i'm not sure (its from 2005 or so, before the first C&D, things have changed since then);

King's Quest IX: Every Cloak has a Silver Lining aka KQIX is a fanmade sequel to the series and will answer many of the unsolved problems in the series. It is currently being developed by Phoenix Online Studios.

So I don't know if it was TSL leaving out "unofficial" and claiming that they would answer unsolved problems, or if just another editor that assumed POS would be doing that. Who knows.

[crayauchtin]

I think it was more or less she was forced to go by her father, but she resigned herself to it. I forget exact phrasing in the original KQ3 on the issue.

I don't think the game actually says one way or the other, so perhaps this is just in the Companion?
I gotta say though, I don't buy that she'd be so upset about her father if he'd just done that -- particularly if she doesn't forgive him for making that choice for her until KQ5.

Actually the physicians had already looked at the king, tried all manner of remedies, and pronounced they couldn't do anything for him. While we know there was about an hour between the start of Alexander's return celebration and the heart attack.  It's actually unclear how much time passed while she was waiting by her father's bed, and when she left for the throne room, and was contacted by Genesta.

That's another thing that's not clear in the game at all -- but looking at the game, I'm gonna say those are some AWFULLY long hugs if an hour passed between Alexander's arrival and the heart attack.

This was a quote from early version of omnipedia page that was created for TSL, it might have been edited in by Yonkey, though it could have just been a fan of the team, i'm not sure (its from 2005 or so, before the first C&D, things have changed since then);

King's Quest IX: Every Cloak has a Silver Lining aka KQIX is a fanmade sequel to the series and will answer many of the unsolved problems in the series. It is currently being developed by Phoenix Online Studios.

Wouldn't the term "fanmade" mean it was necessarily unofficial?

[Baggins]

I don't think the game actually says one way or the other, so perhaps this is just in the Companion?

Actually I think the game has a very brief comment on who sent her there. The oracle states the "dragon requires once a year, the sacrifice of a young maiden" and that his sister is the "chosen one this year", and the gnome states "That monster demanded the sacrifice of your poor sister, Princess Rosella". I know Rosella mentions if you talk to her several times, that when she was sent, she scared, but she wanted to be brave, hoping that her sacrifice might somehow help, and that it probably did, because of it Alexander had come for her. There might be a few more bits of info from the animal messages in Lledor, but I don't remember exactly.

In anycase yes in original KQ3, Rosella had no choice, even if you suggest Graham had no involvement in the decision, the Dragon was still the one that chose her, and made her go. So she didn't have a chance to "volunteer" on the matter. She tried to go as bravely as she could

I gotta say though, I don't buy that she'd be so upset about her father if he'd just done that -- particularly if she doesn't forgive him for making that choice for her until KQ5.

Actually, she probably forgave him long before KQV, Graham is just giving a recap of his own personal feelings on the matter, and how his decision still gives him nightmares. It doesn't specify when Rosella forgave him exactly. She was never so upset that she wished ill on her father, or his death. Otherwise KQ4 wouldn't have been possible.

That's another thing that's not clear in the game at all -- but looking at the game, I'm gonna say those are some AWFULLY long hugs if an hour passed between Alexander's arrival and the heart attack

.
LOL, really don't try to think about the timing too much... especially when you consider in KQ4, an hour passes about every minute or two in the game's internal clock

There is another example in one of the manuals (as I recall), where time description doesn't necessarily match up with what's shown in game.  As I remember, it basically said something along the lines that Graham brought the three treasures back to Edward, and then he died several hours later that night.

In anycase, the "hour" might also be including the time he was going through the castle halls to reach the throne room. Not sure.

[Damar]

I don't think the game actually says one way or the other, so perhaps this is just in the Companion?
I gotta say though, I don't buy that she'd be so upset about her father if he'd just done that -- particularly if she doesn't forgive him for making that choice for her until KQ5.

Actually, she probably forgave him long before KQV, Graham is just giving a recap of his own personal feelings on the matter, and how his decision still gives him nightmares. It doesn't specify when Rosella forgave him exactly. She was never so upset that she wished ill on her father, or his death. Otherwise KQ4 would have been possible.

I thought I remembered when talking to Rosella at the end of KQ3 that she makes the comment it was her idea, that she somehow knew it would all turn out alright and she wouldn't die.  And I think she ends that exchange by saying something like (and I am loosely paraphrasing because I haven't played the game or gotten it to run on my new computer in some time), "And now you're here so I guess I was right."

[Sir Perceval of Daventry]

I don't think the game actually says one way or the other, so perhaps this is just in the Companion?
I gotta say though, I don't buy that she'd be so upset about her father if he'd just done that -- particularly if she doesn't forgive him for making that choice for her until KQ5.

Actually, she probably forgave him long before KQV, Graham is just giving a recap of his own personal feelings on the matter, and how his decision still gives him nightmares. It doesn't specify when Rosella forgave him exactly. She was never so upset that she wished ill on her father, or his death. Otherwise KQ4 would have been possible.

I thought I remembered when talking to Rosella at the end of KQ3 that she makes the comment it was her idea, that she somehow knew it would all turn out alright and she wouldn't die.  And I think she ends that exchange by saying something like (and I am loosely paraphrasing because I haven't played the game or gotten it to run on my new computer in some time), "And now you're here so I guess I was right."

From the Omnipedia:
Rosella (KQ3): "Mum and Dad were heart-broken when you disappeared as a baby," she explains. "Dad searched EVERYWHERE for you. Obviously he never found you. Hard times hit Daventry right after you were kidnapped. Dad and Mum tried, but had lost their will. We were down on our guard, and the terrible dragon came. We all thought it was the end. I was scared, you know. But, I DID want to be brave. I was hoping my sacrifce might somehow help. Maybe, it did. Because of me, YOU came. Now we're together again, and together we can put Daventry right!"

[Baggins]

Don't forget what the Oracle and Gnome say, they say specifically that it was the Dragon that demanded Rosella specifically. She didn't get a chance to "volunteer" for it. Rosella's comment relates how even though she was made to go,and was scared about it, she tried to be brave about it, and hoped it that her sacrifice would somehow help.

Oracle; Years ago, a terrible dragon three-headed dragon invaded Daventry, and keeps the people in a state of terror. This monster requires, once a year, the sacrifice of a young maiden. Sadly, your own sister, Princess Rosella, is the chosen one this year."

Old gnome (KQ3):"Daventry's been suffering for years now, since that despicable dragon came. That monster demanded the sacrifice of your poor sister, Princess Rosella, and I'm afraid time is running out!"

[Lambonius]

While, yes, months later that would still be a justified motivation;

That's exactly my point though.

The motivation is basically the same.  A slightly different sense of urgency perhaps, but it doesn't change the reasoning behind Graham's decision.  He wants to pass on his adventurer's cap not necessarily because his children have just finished a quest.  It's not a direct reward for an action completed.  He's doing it out of a sense of pride for the adults his children have become.  You make it sound like he's paying them for services rendered.  A loving father's pride in his children doesn't wane over time, so regardless of how much time passes between Alexander's return and Graham's passing on the cap, he's still just as proud as ever and just as motivated as ever to express that love and pride to his children.

It would be much more similar to TSL's motivation revision if IA had said, "well actually Graham didn't REALLY intend to pass on his adventurer's cap--what you saw was him practicing his throwing arm in a game of catch with his children.  What he was really going to do was..."  

Also, I feel like I need to reiterate that even though I'm defending the IA retcon here (basically because you pressed me into this position,) I would have argued against the change had I been directly involved in the design of the remake myself.  

Now please, I'm tired of this line of discussion.  Cesar and I already brought our argument to a resolution and agreed to disagree.  Can't we do the same?  

[Baggins]

In the KQ3 ending it starts with Rosella and Alexander entering the castle and directly going to the throne room where they meet their parents. Valanice asking where Alexander has been all this time. Then graham pointing out the magic mirror, and how it been clouded since Alex was kidnapped. The magic mirror then clears, and Valanice declaring that future looks bright. Then graham retrieves his 'Adventurer's hat'. Then he states;

"Alexander, Rosella, believe it or not, this old hat and I have been through a lot together. Now, it's time he had a new travelling companion.

Then he flings the hat towards Alexander's direction. Both Alexander and Rosella raise their arms to catch it. It draws near and near to them.

Before it lands, it pops up, "The End ?.??" (with three question marks).

The KQ4 recap is about the same, although I don't think Graham speaks, or if he does give the exact same message? In it just before it lands, Graham has his heart attack and goes into a coma.

[KatieHal]

Yeah, I could've sworn there was something in the dragon sacrifice thing that was either the dragon wanting her specifically or her volunteering. Which makes more sense re: Graham, because he hasn't ever seemed like the type to just toss his daughter to the beast! That made no sense to me that he would've chosen her to go and then forced her to. That's something the evil king you're supposed to overthrow would do, not the good guy king we've come to know and love!

I can certainly see him feeling guilt over her going regardless, of course.

[Baggins]

Ya, companion's motivation is that the dragon demanded her specifically, like said in the game. But Graham agreed to it, and was the one who personally forced her up the mountain and tied her up. That's what Rosella had forgiven him, and the reason why he had such nightmares. It goes on to suggest that Graham feels remorse for making the decision  (he was partially implicated in the decision),  and he didn't do more to defy the dragon's demands. Further more his prime minister was the one who gave him bad advice to agree to sending maidens in the first place, which apparently drove the dragon to demand more and more maidens, which ultimately lead to dragon demanding Rosella specifically. So ultimately Derek, Graham and others belief that Graham fell to bad judgement (and perhaps slight madness) in his remorse over the loss of his son, and the destruction of the kingdom by the dragon. Actually there are additional comments in KQ3 about the state of the kingdom after loss of Alexander that hint at the extreme grief, and depression felt in the kingdom.

[KatieHal]

Maybe it's the word choice. "Forced" just...does not compute. For example, it's completely different if you say he went up there with her to say good-bye, even though it broke his heart, etc. "Forced" her up there says something completely different.

[Baggins]

Well she was "forced", in as much that Valanice tried to prevent her from going (standing in front of her room with a sword), but Graham took her anways, and he never tried to defy the Dragon. Even if he had no choice himself (or at least he tried to  justify his decision to agree to the Dragong's demands by stating that he had no choice), he felt as if he forced her to do something, she didn't want to really do. The fact of the matter was, he himself was forced into agreeing to the issue, and kowtelling to the dragons' demands. Rosella and Graham are both victims, but Graham was forced into being an accomplice to the terrible deeds. He had allowed untold number of maidens to be killed.

Actually, had Graham and Valanice not suffered from the melancholy of losing their son (and a few other hardships), they might have actually been able to put up a fight against the dragon. Rosella suggests in KQ3 (if you talk to her a few times), that it was that melancholy that prevented them from defending against it in the first place, "they had lost their will, and were down on their guard when the dragon came", and probably why they agreed to such horrible and evil demands.

Strangely enough, some of the later synopses of KQ3 in KQ4 manual, by Roberta in KQV hintbook, in KQV/VI menus, etc, state that Rosella was "abducted" from the Castle by the dragon. They make know note of the fact that Dragon demanded her, and that she went bravely. Infact making it sound like she was even more of an unwilling victim.

[Blackthorne]

I wrote the ending for IA's KQIII.  I took a lot of time and effort to think about King's Quest when I wrote it - and I had to make some decisions.  Yeah, in the original, Alexander walks in and says "I'm your son!"  and everyone else is like "Yes you are!"  And Graham just decides to give his adventuring cap to a boy he hasn't seen for 18 years?  It really seemed like it was a limit of the technology, not the storytelling.  I thought that by showing Alexander learning to know his family and Graham beginning to know what it was like to have a happy reunited family it would give more of an impetus to pass along the "torch" so to speak. 

So, yeah, in a sense, it's a retcon, as far as time-line goes.  I don't think it changed any motivations, though - it just gave them more shape and form.

Some may like it, some might not - the original game is always still there, so our "alternate" take on it is just that.  Another option.  I like it, personally.


Bt

[Baggins]

I think the ending was decent enough, the only issue, was that it doesn't fit with the recap in KQ4 (and its manual). Which just more or less repeats much of the same info from the KQ3 ending, in that Alexander had returned to the kingdom, defeated the dragon, and saved Rosella "moments before", etc.

So it makes your game inconsistent with the series as a whole (or at least inconstent with KQ4 itself). Basically you'd have to rewrite the narration text of KQ4, if you were to make a remake, in order to make it fit with your remake's ending.