Getting married in the Green Isles

[Enchantermon]

I'd like to see you try! Go go Gadget Helicopter Hat! *flies away*

[Haids1987]

Blast!  Thwarted again!

Oh, hey, a nickel!  *Wanders off*

[Baggins]

But of what castle? That's what gets me about the Companion's added storyline about Valanice's parents...there's NO government to be seen at all in KQ2. There are very few people living there, and we see the whole island. The only castle is Dracula's, and the rest of the people are scattered loosely around the place

Umm, the Companion actually explains it pretty well... that the main population center of the kingdom is east of the mountain range (you know that mountain range that's a barrier to the east?). You don't visit her home realm in Kolyma. You only visit a remote outer edge of the kingdom. The companion's has the whole angle covered... Her home was in a population center in the region that you conveniently cannot visit in the game. So no contradictions.

In addition its explained that western region is covered in the magical law of "containment" that prevents travel to the north or south of the island. A person just wraps, i.e. teleported back to where they started from if they continue in one direction.

What you see in the game is only the western side of the continent. You can't travel east, because of that mountain. So no you "don't see the entire island". You do see see the entire continent on a chart in KQ3 though.

Its a shade better than how KQ2 manual had it (which just said she was a maiden of Kolyma, kidnapped by Hagatha, and you would still be left wondering where her home was located before she was kidnapped)...

On a related note, in one of the novels, Kingdom of Sorrow, you learn about Matilda a maid that Rosella brought from Kolyma when she journeyed to Daventry. She remembers Valanice's castle. Chasing the young girl from the dungeons up into the parapets of her castle (ya Valanice is said to be of nobility in that book). That's about the limits to description of Kolyma castle that has ever been made. Beyond that Companion alluded to the castle beyond the mountains when discussing Rosella's father Cedric. What happened to Cedric and Coignice? The books leave a mystery, but its never actually explained.

Maybe Dracula killed them for Hagatha :p... Shame no one tried to tie Dracula castle into being her former home.

The architecture of the castle wouldn't allow a garden inside the high castle walls anyway.

Well to be fair that door actually just lead directly into the kitchen in KQ6. You only 'see' (have it described to you) it during the short path though. Alexander goes to the door, briefly looks in (sees its a kitchen, dishes are piled to the ceiling, and food is being prepared for the wedding feast), he walks in, sees the staff/cook inside, he quickly runs out before the staff tries to give him a job. Actually as I recall the cook actually yells at him from the door as he exits (telling him not to bother them or some such). In long path, there is a short chance to look at the door, and have the narrator state its a kitchen. But that is the limits to the interaction with it (since Saladin has his sword on Alex at that point).

Where was the wedding itself being held? Not a garden but the throne room.

[Novem]

Well to be fair that door actually just lead directly into the kitchen in KQ6.

Yeah, the location of the kitchen is wrong, too. :-(

[Blackthorne]

Yep. Rosella getting married in the Green Isles is a large plot hole and thus renders the game totally unplayable.  You guys should just scrap the whole thing and start over.  THROW IT ALL AWAY.


Bt

[scintilla77]

Umm, the Companion actually explains it pretty well... that the main population center of the kingdom is east of the mountain range (you know that mountain range that's a barrier to the east?). You don't visit her home realm in Kolyma. You only visit a remote outer edge of the kingdom. The companion's has the whole angle covered... Her home was in a population center in the region that you conveniently cannot visit in the game. So no contradictions.

In addition its explained that western region is covered in the magical law of "containment" that prevents travel to the north or south of the island. A person just wraps, i.e. teleported back to where they started from if they continue in one direction.

Oh right, i forgot about that part of the companion. It's a weird idea, but it sure makes a lot more sense than having the only buildings in Kolyma be a castle, a cottage, a home in a tree and an antique shop. 

Back on topic, I just realized that the way Rosella was oohing and aahing over Etheria in KQ7, I'm surprised she didn't want to get married there. But still, I don't think Rosella and Edgar getting married in the green isles was a *bad* idea at all, it just would have made more sense if someone in the game explained why they got married there (actually, was it explained? I don't remember).

[Baggins]

Hmm I was reminded, in KQ2 novelization in the companion, Gerwain actually said something to the effect;

It wasn't proper that Graham wed far away from his own land, out of sight of his own subjects.

 

Actually strangely enough, Roberta contradicted herself once, in one of the synopses she wrote (in KQV Hintbook), she claimed Graham and Roberta returned from Kolyma and were married in Daventry.

After returning to Daventry, in a beautiful wedding ceremony, Valanice became King Graham's wife, and Queen of Daventry.

[Rick_Florez]

Oh god here we go with the kitchen again.   

TSL didn't forget the kitchen from KQ6, all it did was put it across the hallway.  Its there.  The door is there in the game and clearly says its a kitchen. Its not a stretch of the imagination to assume Alex actually wandered a few steps further than you thought since you never saw him once he stepped through the doorway nor is it impossible that the hallway could have been used as a staging ground for the wedding of Alhazared and Cassima. 

Seriously you are willing to accept a convoluted explanation about how Kolyma had this whole other part to it that no one ever mentions just off screen with an entire back story for Valanice that was never mentioned in the game that even in some ways contradicts the original game manual which by your logic should be gospel because it came first and was written by the original creator, BUT are unwilling to accept the notion that maybe there are parts of the Castle of the Crown that you never got to see despite the fact it looks a lot bigger from a distance and has several additional towers that there is no physical way to access in the game. (Wow talk about a run on sentence  ).

By the same logic Graham must have always slept in his throne room since there are no other visible access points to Castle Daventry in KQ 1-3. I guess Rosella steps through a wall when she walks south to Graham's bed chamber at the end of KQ4 because I couldn't walk there in previous installments when I had full control of Graham.

A lot of care and thought went into any extension we made to the original game screens.  Every door from the original KQ6 castle is there, even though you can't actually open them (nor could you in KQ6).  I will admit a few details did get changed like the Pegasus got drawn on the East and West wings by accident and the Alcove is not quite as round as it was in the original (mainly because the modeler didn't think about it and back in the day making that round would have added a lot more faces to an already heavy set so we left it more square plus it is easier to hang portraits there this way). 

Back to the garden, ultimately it came down to finding the most logical place to extend that castle and that was it.  We didn't want to make a new door you had never seen because that would have been a major contradiction.  The extension is logical and we tend to give the player a little credit and assume he can use his/her brain to reason why certain things are the way they are.

[Baggins]

Actually I was just mentioned how it was portrayed in the KQ6. Specifically, that he looks inside, sees that it was a kitchen. Then walks in, cook yells at him, then he walks out. He wouldn't have known it was a kitchen, if there was a hallway there. All he would see would have been a hallway. Not to mention, in long path, just staring at the door tells you its a kitchen... No way he should have known that of course (since in long path he doesn't actually get a chance to check the door), but all-knowing narrator knows.

You moved the kitchen, I get that... But don't try to rewrite KQ6's intent... Because it was very specific. So much so that KQ6 Hint book, and King's Quest Companion, etc, explicitly state that room as a kitchen. Its very clear what the designers were going for at the time KQ6 was made.

The kitchen isn't the only difference in your castle's architecture, that isn't explained in-game, but I won't go into that. Last time I did, the TSL's designers claimed a wizard/Shamir did it, and did it along with the kitchen   .

What you choose to do, and what the Sierra designers chose to do are two different things... Your game takes place in an alternate universe. 'que sera sera'. The fact that you changed things actually doesn't bother my 'enjoyment' of your game, its still interesting play. I just find it interesting to discover things that are different. Like in those 'spot the differences' artworks.

By the same logic Graham must have always slept in his throne room since there are no other visible access points to Castle Daventry in KQ 1-3. I guess Rosella steps through a wall when she walks south to Graham's bed chamber at the end of KQ4 because I couldn't walk there in previous installments when I had full control of Graham.

There is actually a simple explanation, there is a door there. As stated in novels. Graham just chooses not to open them/turn the handles, etc, in KQ1 original. In KQ2 and KQ3, you don't have full control in the throne room, so its not really a valid point.

On the one hand, in KQ6 disk version,  as the room pans, there is no door there, LOL. So uh maybe he does step through a wall, . or they bricked up the doors between KQ4 and KQ6, Or maybe one of those fancy smancy doors designed to look like the wall (went to Buckingham Palace they explained about some doors that were designed to look like a mirror and furniture, heh heh).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmt6gE1k9A8

an entire back story for Valanice that was never mentioned in the game that even in some ways contradicts the original game manual which by your logic should be gospel because it came first and was written by the original creator,

Hmm, how does it contradict the manual? The companion actually repeats what the manual (the original creators) said about Valanice, and then extends it from there. The companion only tries to explain what the manual said about her.

All the manual (original creators) has to day about Valanice was;

This is the maiden Valanice. She is from the kingdom of Kolyma, and is known for her goodness no less than her beauty

It goes on to say she was kidnapped from Kolyma by the witch Hagatha.

The companion states;

King Graham, our most wise and beloved monarch, took to wife a maiden of the tropical land of Kolyma. Valanice is her name, and her beauty, wisdom  and goodness are beyond compare.

It also says she was kidnapped from the land by the witch Hagatha.

I already covered the additional information that companion added. As I said before the KQ2 manual states that Valanice was from the kingdom of Kolyma, and was kidnapped from there by Hagatha. As it has been stated if you were going by the game and manual alone you would be left with questions.

The companion just tried to answer some of those questions, and give a plausible explanation for what the manual didn't explain. It didn't actually change anything,  it repeated what the manual said about it, and just expanded on it.

You seriously can't complain about the companion, because the problem Katie was complaining about, and accusing the companion of committing (I.E. 'where did valanice live'?), was actually the problem  with the original game documentation itself (by the developers). The problem was not with the companion (which attempted to avoid that particular problem).

[Lambonius]

You moved the kitchen, I get that... But don't try to rewrite KQ6's intent... Because it was very specific. So much so that KQ6 Hint book, and King's Quest Companion, etc, explicitly state that room as a kitchen. Its very clear what the designers were going for at the time KQ6 was made.

If we're talking about rewriting the intention of the original series creators, I would say that TSL goes A LOT further than just moving around an insignificant kitchen...

[Baggins]

If we're talking about rewriting the intention of the original series creators, I would say that TSL goes A LOT further than just moving around an insignificant kitchen...

Yes,  , LOL. The kitchen is but one small, extremely minute, example. There are a lot more.

I love playing spot the differences, I'm sorry it annoys the designers, lol. Because of that I've actually decided to step back, and not point out others in the forums I've discovered as I've played their game. Or at least, avoid trying to make a big deal over it here.

[KatieHal]

It's in the Companion that the story of Valanice being a princess comes up, isn't it? Whereas in the game she's just "the maiden Valanice." I think that's what Rich was referring to; also that the castle, etc, she's from aren't in the game KQ2 at all, and only in the companion. (Not a contradiction, no, but I think you get what I mean.)

In any case, we have said our primary canon that we went by (aside from a few architectural issues...) is what was shown in the games themselves.

[Baggins]

t's in the Companion that the story of Valanice being a princess comes up, isn't it? Whereas in the game she's just "the maiden Valanice." I think that's what Rich was referring to; also that the castle, etc, she's from aren't in the game KQ2 at all, and only in the companion. (Not a contradiction, no, but I think you get what I mean.)

In any case, we have said our primary canon that we went by (aside from a few architectural issues...) is what was shown in the games themselves

Well to be fair it doesn't specifically state that she is a "princess" just that she is the daughter of a prince and a miller's daughter. Yes, that would make her a princess.

It is said that the land  "is a kingdom" in the KQ2 manual though. The manual states that she was kidnapped from there, but there is no explanation as to where she was living. Remember in the parts of Kolyma we see, we already know where each individual is living for the most part.

BTW, Dracula is a count (not a king), so his castle isn't likely the castle of KQ2 manuals "kingdom".

All the companion did was try to explain where she was living before she was kidnapped. It also tried to explain the KQ2's reference to why the land was a "kingdom". It repeated everything else from the manual, and just expanded on it.

It seems you team is trying to do the same thing (from a different direction). If your game has its own explanation for where Valanice was living, cool. I can't wait to see the difference, .

[KatieHal]

Hmm, I need an eyebrow waggling smiley.

Well, it did call it a kingdom, but I suppose I never found that odd for a few reasons. One, it's a fantasy world...it's always a kingdom! Two, there *was* a castle, it was just full of undead people. It did leave one wondering just where she was kidnapped from, though.

Which reminds me, I need to get back to replaying KQ2+!

[Baggins]

ne, it's a fantasy world...it's always a kingdom!  

Well as far as I know, Llewdor was never called a "kingdom" in the games or manuals as far as I know. Neither was Tamir? Was even Serenia said to be a kingdom in KQV/manual? I think they were just called lands, or nations, or countries.

I know Daventry and the Green Isles were specifically called kingdoms. They also had kings.

In KQ7, I think Vulcanix Underground was called a kingdom, and Etheria is as well. The rest of the lands were not called kingdoms, as far as I know. Ooga Booga specifically is referred to as a land.

Two, there *was* a castle, it was just full of undead people. It did leave one wondering just where she was kidnapped from, though..

I mentioned that Count Dracula is a count, not a king. Everything else living there ghoul ferryman and his ghost guards, the rat, are not kings either.

IN the end it still would leave the question in your view of Kolyma where was Valanice living? With Grandma? With the Monks? At the antique store? Maybe with the dwarf? In the cave at the top of the cliffs? Or with Hagatha in her cave?


On a related note I remember a discussion on these forums where I brought up information about King George IV and Princess Priscilla from the companion. Someone here complained about it, pointing out that no castle can be seen in KQV. So how could it have a king and princess?

I then pointed out that King George and Priscilla actually originated from Wizard and the Princess which took place in the same land. Still in that game you don't see the castle. But you knew from that king that it was a kingdom of some sort. Even if you can't see the castle in the game.

Was it the fault of the companion? Nope, again it just tried to expand on what manuals of a game had previously said...

[Lambonius]

I don't understand why the Companion is being referenced as though it ISN'T part of the KQ canon.  Canon, by definition, refers to any officially licensed story material--which the Companions would most certainly be.  You can't pick and choose what's canon.  It either IS canon, or it ISN'T.  

Retconning official canon is the lowest possible form of fan fiction storytelling (well, aside from making a KQ porno or something.)    A good writer should be able to expand on official canon without altering it to suit their purposes.  

[KatieHal]

I'm not outright saying it's not canon, but it's definitely problematic. The biggest example is that the Companion at first called Edgar a fisherman's son, something that come KQ7 was obviously wrong; and from what I understand, the Companion seems to have a lot of things to say about KQ7 that try to say things from it aren't true and aren't what really happened.

LOL, then most fanfiction is the lowest form of fanfiction, since that's almost exclusively what it does as a rule!

What I'm saying is in terms of adhering to canon, we concerned ourselves with the primary sources which are also the ones most fans know--the games themselves.

[Baggins]

first called Edgar a fisherman's son

Actually, I added that bit into the Omnipedia recently. Its said specifically to be one of many rumors to try to explain his background. No one knew who his father was, some thought maybe son of one of the local fisherman in the region, others thought maybe the son of an evil sorcerer.

So it was never "specific on the issue". It was just random inuniverse speculation, much like the kind you see in the Guidebook to the Land of the Green Isles to explain the creation of each of the islands, or the history of the Ancient Ones.

Companion seems to have a lot of things to say about KQ7 that try to say things from it aren't true and aren't what really happened.

Yes, Derek from his in-universe perspective states he doesn't think the events of KQ7 ring true to him. However, he admits this is only his opinion, and he could be wrong. This is basically the same as the in-universe rumors like in the Guidebook to the Land of the Green Isles. In-universe rumors and speculation, doesn't mean its "wrong" just that the guy who was speculating in-universe was wrong.

[Lambonius]

What I'm saying is in terms of adhering to canon, we concerned ourselves with the primary sources which are also the ones most fans know--the games themselves.

Does that also include the printed manuals, which in the cases of games like KQ3 and 6 were an indispensable part of the experience?

(Posted on: September 30, 2010, 12:18:53 PM)

LOL, then most fanfiction is the lowest form of fanfiction, since that's almost exclusively what it does as a rule!

I agree.  Fan fiction, by its very nature, is in almost all cases, laughably bad.  And it's usually because of all the shameless retconning (and amateur writing quality that typically comes with non-professional writing.)

[KatieHal]

Does that also include the printed manuals, which in the cases of games like KQ3 and 6 were an indispensable part of the experience?

I'm pretty sure I see where you're going with this. And yes, those are part of the games, and we've tried to account for those. If it's about what's said in-game towards the end of Episode 2, the subject's been covered in the forums beforehand (in a thread that I'm fairly certain included you).