Getting married in the Green Isles

[Lambonius]

Does that also include the printed manuals, which in the cases of games like KQ3 and 6 were an indispensable part of the experience?

I'm pretty sure I see where you're going with this. And yes, those are part of the games, and we've tried to account for those. If it's about what's said in-game towards the end of Episode 2, the subject's been covered in the forums beforehand (in a thread that I'm fairly certain included you).

Lol...just keeping you on your toes, Katie.  I'll leave it alone. 

[KatieHal]

Appreciated 

[Baggins]

I think the manuals were indepensible part of the game for 1, 2, 3, & 6. Very important part of the backstory. You need manual for 4 in order to play the game so pretty much indispensable.

Although you can also get to backstories for early games repeating what was said in the manuals in the about screen of kqv and kq6 which state facts such as Alex needing to escape manannan because he was about to kill him. I think even narrator in kq3 stated that one as well in the introduction. It's also in the manuals for kqv and kq8 as well.

[Rick_Florez]

That was exactly my point Katie about Valanice.  The original game never made her royalty.  She was just maiden.  Then years later somebody else came along added that extra fact about her heritage.    Its not a bad thing, we actually mention some of it in episode 3.   My point is every time we expand on something that was not defined in the original we get railed on and attacked and told we're b******izing the series.   Even for small things that we give explanations for.  That's what gets annoying.

I have no problem with people pointing out things we overlooked, things we weren't aware of.  As I said if we can accommodate those we'll fix them.

There is actually a simple explanation, there is a door there. As stated in novels. Graham just chooses not to open them/turn the handles, etc, in KQ1 original. In KQ2 and KQ3, you don't have full control in the throne room, so its not really a valid point.

Two things on this.  If I play king's quest 1 and type OPEN DOOR it doesn't work.  So no Graham does not simply chose to not open the door, he has to do what I tell him to do even if it kills him     Ultimately you missed my original point.  For 3 games it was assumed nothing was there then in the 4th they needed to expand on it for story reasons so they chose the spot that made the most sense.  You didn't tap on the monitor to get Rosella's attention to tell her "Hey girl, there is nothing that way, you're running into a wall."  You just accepted it as something you had never seen before.

The kitchen/hallway is really no different.  This is how I always assumed this would work.  In KQ6 Alex stepped into the hallway, the door to the kitchen was open (maybe that's not clear from the in-game model but it does open) and the first thing he saw that this hallway led to the kitchen.   The hallway was full of servants, tables and most of all an angry chef who told him to immediately get out which he promptly did.  Now if I were wandering through someone's home, encountered a situation like that and someone asked what was that way, my reaction would be that's the way to the kitchen since that's the first thing I encountered.  Maybe there was a door to the backyard but I probably would not have had a chance to notice it.  Simple, elegant and straightforward.

Ultimately I enjoy discussing this stuff, just don't dismiss what I say as not making sense or invalid simply because it was not written in a KQ companion.

[Baggins]

You can type a lot of things in kq1 that the game doesn't understan that's hardly an indication of anything.

Example just try opening the cabinets in the woodcutters house. It doesn't even acknowledge they are there. In anycase didn't the manual explain a bit more about the castle?

Still as I pointed out in kq6 there is only a wall there so how did rosella walk out?I freely admit that castle daventy and even davantry were never consistent throughout entire series.

I personally disagree with your explanation of the kitchen because it doesn't match up with the ingame descriptions in my opinion. We will have agree to disagree on this point. The kitchen has no impact on my enjoyment of the game however. So don't take this as slight towards it.

[Rick_Florez]

The practice of PRIMARY and SECONDARY continuities/canon are very common in long time franchises.  Star Trek, Star Wars, Robotech.  They all follow the same basic guide line.  What happened on-screen is the primary source of information.  Even then they contradict themselves at times.  This is really because novels, comics, rpg books, games are all written by different authors, authorized to do so but not necessarily involved with a show's production so the content tends to not always be accurate or contain ideas that go off on their own tangent to a point where they cannot fit into the universe established by the ongoing series.

In our case, we try to stick to the games themselves as much as possible.  The manuals are our next source of information since they actually came with the game.  The novels after that since unlike the companion they were not in constant flux and finally the companion, mainly because that one started throwing in its own ideas even rewriting the origins of the KQ universe.

The author's of TSL know the series pretty well overall.  Having someone like Baggins on board back when the script was written who's really broken it down into a science might have been useful to avoid certain issues we might have overlooked however.

We did try to merge all of these various sources into one coherent universe.  Unfortunately its been cut, but the original chapter 4 was going to allow the player to explore the Daventry keep in detail and our now lead programmer at the time had managed to create a layout of the castle that pretty much resolved most of the inconsistencies from the games and books.  Even the dreaded question of why the room seen in MOE did not look like the throne room we've seen.  Basically because it wasn't, but it did fit another room mentioned in the novels.  It would have been a fun chapter and honestly I wish we had started the story there.  Oh well.

Getting back to the manuals we're not trying to contradict them so Lambonius let us know where you feel we are.    For the record we're not changing the fact that Manannan kidnapped boys and trained them as slaves, nor that he would kill them at 18.  In fact Alexander confirms this in his statements at the end of episode 2.  I have the KQ3 manual and just reread it now to be sure.  It is never mentioned directly in the manual that Alex must escape before he's 18 to save himself.  Its something you assume I agree but the story in the book predates Alexander completely and makes not reference to that.  So there is room to assume there might be more to the story in Alex's case but yes it is a very delicate line to walk on.

[Baggins]

The kq3 thing is mentioned in kq3 intro isn't? By the narrator? I know it's mentioned in kq6 in 'about' menu.

[Lambonius]

Lol...you ARE a persistent one aren't you?  I did say I was going to leave it alone, now didn't I?  But since you bring it up...

You do know that you DIE in KQ3 if you take too long to escape Manannan, don't you?  It doesn't get much more explicit or in-game than that.   Why do you think the whole game is on a timer?? 

But I don't want to really assume things about TSL's plot yet, since it's hard to tell how much of an affront it is to the original source material until the whole story has been revealed.  So we can end this discussion here if you like.

[Baggins]

Manny will kill you for many differnt mistakes. Disobey 6 times. Get caught off the mountain. Taking too long. Having forbidden contraband. Not putting wand in it's right place, etc.

No I don't think he was trying to keep him alive.

In any case despite it's differnces tsl is much closer to original source material than kq2+ and even kq3+ and I commend you guys for it.

Although I sort of wish you would have ignored the companion completely because the partial references makes the differences/inconsistencies between the two sources stand out even more when they appear.

[Rick_Florez]

We can agree to disagree but since you honestly have pissed me off about this in the past and still refuse to acknowledge that the explanation is at least possible I must prove my point since you insist on being so specific. 

Below are the quotes directly taken from KQ6.

Narrator when first entering Mainhall dressed as servant :

From the open door comes the clatter of pots and pans, yelled instructions, and other busy kitchen noises.

This description clearly works in a scenario where the kitchen door is open or that they are using the hallway as staging ground.  The sound could easily travel such a short distance from the kitchen, through the hallway to the doorway.  Plus servants who are preparing plates and food for the wedding in the hallway would also be making additional noise.

The waiter says this to you when he sees you :

You! Girl!  Don't just stand there!  There's a stack of silver almost to the ceiling that needs polishing for the wedding!  Get a move on!

There is nothing there specific about the the silver being in the kitchen, it could be in the hallway if once again its a staging ground.  Even if its in the kitchen, nothing says its immediately behind the door, just close by in that general direction.


Look at Door :

There's a door on the west wall, under the stairs.  It's the door the waiter came through, and probably leads to the kitchen

This is the message you get when clicking eye on door both before and after you go through it.  The important words here are "LEAD" and "PROBABLY".  Lead implies that it might not directly go there but allow you to eventually get there by going through the door.  Probably just implies even more that what's right behind the door may not be the kitchen.


Hand on Door :

Alexander decides to check out the door the waiter came through.

This line tells us nothing specific about whats behind the door.

No lunch is being served today!  We're busy catering the wedding!

Though this implies you are heading in the general area of the kitchen, nothing in this statement says that you are directly inside it.  If the hallway is the staging ground then there would be servants and maybe even an angry wedding planner or cook that would assume you are here for that and tell you to leave.

Apparently, the kitchen is no place to be today.

This is the final statement when Alex returns from the doorway.  It also does not directly say that he was in the kitchen, but simply that the kitchen itself is busy and not somewhere you want to be.  Also it is not uncommon for such a statement to imply not only the room that is the kitchen but whatever nearby area is also being used in the preparation of the meal.

Going back into the doorway gives me the same results, even multiple times.  Are there additional dialogs I am not aware of.  The eye message does not change either.

This is all through the short route.  As I recall you cannot go top side in the long route because if you do when the wedding starts you automatically walk to the throne room door, and if you go before you simply get caught which is why you need to use the secret passage.


P.S.  I did notice 1 glaring mistake we made about the kitchen/hallway door.  We put the door nob on the left and hinges on the right when it should have been the opposite.  As such the door pivots on the wrong side.

Oh well, you can't get everything right I guess 

[snabbott]

For the Manannan thing, there's another way you can look at it if you can't deal with the possibility that he wasn't going to kill Alexander.

Alexander is important to the plans of the BCS. However, the "mighty leader" of the BCS is imprisoned and unable to do anything. Maybe not all of the members of the BCS were fully on board with the leader's plans. They are part of the BCS, but they probably have their own ambitions and plans that may not entirely fit with the leader's plans. Anyway, short-term issues often take precedence over long-term plans. Of course, now that the leader's prison is weakening, they don't want him to know that they would have gone against him. They didn't actually do it, so it's all good.

[Baggins]

The guy who says no lunch is being served is said to be the the Chef in the credits iirc. Anycase I think you missed the point that I was discussing developers intent and the sierra kq6 guide states that is the kitchen as well.

I accept that you chose to change things to make the story easier for you but the truth was in kq6 that wad intended to be the kitchen.

On an additionalnote where you placed you hall seems to cut right accross where the throne room is located I'm not sure it takes into consideration the physical dimensions of thenthrone room. Your hall seems to impossible overlap.

[wilco64256]

The throne room is bigger than the open hall area?  Didn't seem any wider in KQ6.

[Baggins]

I just view your game an alternate universe(as wilco suggested) it makes everything easier. I just enjoy it for what it is, as stand alone.


(Posted on: September 30, 2010, 03:40:51 PM)

Door is under the staircase. The staircases make the area considerable less wide. Your hall seems to be directly through the door. Thus placing it within dimensions under staircase. It would be passing through the space taking up the throne room. Unless of course you have another passage room between 2 doors(a kind of airlock). That would of course move the kitchen further away three doors away. Muffling kitchen sounds, even further departure from kq6.

[Rick_Florez]

You're right Lambonius I am persistent.  That persistence is one of the things that got me to the level of project director.  But I also like these debates not only because they are fun but also because they force us to analyze our game ideas and make sure they work correctly.  There is nothing I hate more than we get sloppy and miss and something obvious we should have seen.

As suggested by episode 2 there may be more to Alex's kidnapping than we knew about.  There may be more of a master plan than we thought.  However lets keep something in mind. Even though he may answer to a hire power, Manannan is still an old solitary man who spies on the people of Llewdor.  He's likely prone to paranoia and sudden rage black outs.  If he thought a simple boy who was dabbling in magic was enough of a threat to kill him on the spot, a boy prophesied to hold great power would be an even bigger threat if Manannan lost control of him.

I've always escaped before the timer ever ran out on me but from what I've read in the walk through documents on KQ3, you don't die because the timer ultimately reaches a point where you're 18 and your time has come.  From my understanding you simply run out of food to feed the wizard and he kills you for it.  (Once again pesky rage black out).  However if I am incorrect on this let me know.

As for the whole story of Alex being murdered by 18, though you need to take a step back to accept it (in some ways its the same type of explanation you might find in the companion) it is possible that whole notion is something that Alexander assumed upon learning of Manannan's past horrors since his situation was quite similar.  From there all notions of Manannan's real plans we're lost and replaced with Alexander's interpretation of events since he was the only person able to recount the tale.

Snabbott's theory about rogue elements in the BCS is something I also think is possible.  I tend to think of Mordack that way.  He's part of the group because his brother was but he's more of a rebel which is why he didn't flinch at threatening Valanice when he captured the royal family.

[Baggins]

Manny in companion is described by Alex as having extreme mood swings at times threatening to kill him when he turns eighteen (or even younger) and sometime promising to let him go. More often than not he threatened the boy telling him about his previous servants. Alex mentions he nearly killed him a few times but calmed just enough to let him off.

[Rick_Florez]

Manny in companion is described by Alex as having extreme mood swings at times threatening to kill him when he turns eighteen and sometime promising to let him go. More often than not he threatened the boy telling him about his previos servants.

Thanks Baggins.  For once you actually prove my theory  

Baggins you are a valiant opponent which is why I continue these debates.  I respect you.  You've broken down the KQ universe to a practical science.  I tend to think I know a lot about Star Trek and kicked my friend's butts when we played Star Trek Scene It but you my friend take fantasy universe analysis to a whole new level.

That being said, do not even go the route of scale in an adventure game.  There is no such thing.  I'm not gonna deny that the proportions are slightly out of wack.  We did have to cheat a bit to make the flythrough of the introduction work.  Despite that, the proportions and layout of the original castle do not work in KQ6 either.

The throne room is definitely taller than the staircase to the second floor.  You can easily see this because the doors to the throne room are much smaller and closer to the height of Alex and Saladin.  Yet when you see the throne room itself its got a high ceiling, chandeliers, etc.  Which forces the throne room to be in an area no larger than the space between the staircases since thats the width of the inner core seen in the mainhall which is the only part of the castle that extends past the second floor.  Otherwise the second floor hallways would be cutting into the throne room.  Now you might argue that maybe the upper ceiling is smaller.  But even if that were true, there is still that matter of the round alcove with the painting.  There is no evidence a small cavity extending through the ceiling area of the throne room.  Not to mention that the throne room includes a back door to a tower which seems to be immediately connected to the throne room.  However that cannot be the case since there is north wing on the second floor that the tower would be cutting through  

There are many other discrepencies too.  Like the Door Alexander paints on the castle wall.  The way the basement is designed it makes it look like you're right on the other side of it.  Even using hole in the wall it looks like the wall isn't thick at all.  Yet the spot where Alex walks in has a room right next to it that is not visible from the outside.  Lets not even consider the interior to exterior ratio of Manannan's house in KQ3 or the size of Daventry castle in KQ1-2-3.  For those to have worked the doors should have been on the right side of the castle to give enough room for you to walk north and then left to the throne room.

I'm sure we can think many more inconsistencies if we really looked.

At any rate I've proven my point on the hallway/kitchen idea.  I've proven that even the dialogs from the game do not disprove it.  And if the last thing you can fall back on is that we're not the original designers then really that's not a valid argument because there is no way for us to win that one.

I agree the original design on the designer's layout was probably kitchen, however as was done many time before things have changed over the games to fit story necessities.  It has a precedent.

Anyway if you prefer to create parallel universes in your mind to rationalize things that's fine.  I did the same thing with the last Star Trek movie.  Just don't tell me my argument has no merit  

Now lets move on to the Manannan stuff since that the next juicy thing to debate.

[Cez]

I don't understand why the Companion is being referenced as though it ISN'T part of the KQ canon.  Canon, by definition, refers to any officially licensed story material--which the Companions would most certainly be.  You can't pick and choose what's canon.  It either IS canon, or it ISN'T.  

Retconning official canon is the lowest possible form of fan fiction storytelling (well, aside from making a KQ porno or something.)    A good writer should be able to expand on official canon without altering it to suit their purposes.  

Aren't you part of AGDI? How comes you accept KQ2+ then? I'ts ok for you to retcon, but not for us?

[KatieHal]

LOL, he's part of IA, Cez, not AGDI

[Baggins]

I was referring to wideness of entry hall in comparison to throne room. Both are just as wide in kq6. In entry hall the staircases take up but more than third of the room. So if you entered into staircase door you would still be under entry hall and within boundaries of the wall between it and the throne room. In fact if you were standing under staircase there would a bit is sloping roof.

(Posted on: September 30, 2010, 04:38:47 PM)

I'm not part of any game team cez. I make same comparisons I make for your game on their game as well. I enjoy seeing where the games make detours.
I don't know about lambonius opinion since kq3+ made detours. Is even made ignore the fact that Derek moved into manny's house.

In my mid I just ignore last star trek, grrr. To be fare that's probably closer to how I take fan fiction as well.