Getting married in the Green Isles

[crayauchtin]

Blackthorne -- as I said, I personally like the ending although I don't consider it such a minor retcon. That's why there's an untold adventure in there in my panon. (I'll probably write that out as an addendum to my Companion that I'm writing -- which is basically just my panon being shared with some creative things added to it. I already have two other addendums planned. )

At the very least the retcon changes Rosella's motivations -- and I'm not saying she would have wished him harm, I'm just saying she did a really stupid thing due to her heightened emotions and sure it worked out fine but it was still stupid even for her. Those heightened emotions would not exist to the same extent in a different situation and therefore the entirety of KQ4 was changed.
So.... TSL's making a "What we didn't know..." about the villains' motivations seems way less of a big deal to me than that. I mean, you don't spend any time as the character whose motivations are changed whereas..... IA did change the motivations of the next game's protagonist.

Lamb, I know you said you would disagree with this statement, I'm just pointing out that if the complaints you've raised are more than "it disagrees with my panon" that the same rules need to apply to all of the unofficial material -- including KQ2+ and KQ3 VGA -- at least one of which you said that you like and the other of which you at least don't mind.

I mean, I'm having to readjust some major parts of my panon to work in the storyline so far.... Lord only knows how twisted it will become -- if I'll even be able to work TSL into it! But I don't find that to be a problem with the plot.

[Blackthorne]

So it makes your game inconsistent with the series as a whole (or at least inconstent with KQ4 itself). Basically you'd have to rewrite the narration text of KQ4, if you were to make a remake, in order to make it fit with your remake's ending.

Actually, no - the opening narration of King's Quest IV merely says "With the return of his long lost son Alexander..."  That could mean any length of time, honestly, as long as it was recent.  The codecil of IA's KQIII takes place a couple of months after the inital return.

At the very least the retcon changes Rosella's motivations -- and I'm not saying she would have wished him harm, I'm just saying she did a really stupid thing due to her heightened emotions and sure it worked out fine but it was still stupid even for her. Those heightened emotions would not exist to the same extent in a different situation and therefore the entirety of KQ4 was changed.

Let me ask you:  has your father ever been in a life or death situation?  Have you had to stand there, with your health, and love for the man, and feel powerless?  I have.  And I know that in that moment I saw my father in the hospital ICU, tubes attached to him, with doctors telling me the only thing we could do is wait - I would have made a rash and bold decision if the panacea was offered to me.  So I don't think Rosella's motivations are changed.  When your loved ones are in deep distress, your reactions and actions are often different than when things are "normal".

Bt

[KatieHal]

Without commenting on retcons, etc, I do have to agree with Bt on the motivation note--Rosella's decision was made more from her father's dire condition than anything else. When you add in that's it also JUST after all these other emotionally intense things have happened, it just heightens that.

[Baggins]

Actually, no - the opening narration of King's Quest IV merely says "With the return of his long lost son Alexander..."  That could mean any length of time, honestly, as long as it was recent.  The codecil of IA's KQIII takes place a couple of months after the inital return.

Well the manual for KQ4 also states;

"According to legend, shortly after Rosella's rescue King Graham decided it was time to pass on his adventurer's cap. Gathering in his wife and two children, the King offered a grateful smile upwards, for each member of his family had given him great pride. Gazing down at his children, he couldn't help but see the glint of spirited valor in their eyes. Knowing the future of his kingdom would rest soundly in the hands of its future heir, he slowly lifted his hands to display the infamous adventurer's cap."

I suppose either it matters how you define "shortly", or you made a choice to willingly ignore the game documenation. I personally wouldn't consider 'several months later', as "shortly".

In KQ6, there is a summary offering details about KQ4, accessed from the save game menu (btw Cray, here is another reference to those physicians, outside of the companion, but was included in one of the official games itself);

Shortly after Prince Alexander's Return, King Graham's health began to fail. The royal physicians were powerless to help him. Only a magical fruit from the faraway land of Tamir could bring about a cure and restore the health of Daventry's beloved monarch.

It also suggests that it was "shortly" after. Again I suppose it matters on how you define "shortly", or if there was a personal decision to ignore material from the other games.

Here is a reference from the KQV Cd-rom (click on about, when you are in the save menu):

Prince Alexander has returned home and all seems well again. However, as things are prone to go, King Graham suffers a major heart attack and hovers near death. It's up to his daughter, Princess Rosella, to go in search of a magical fruit that will restore her father to perfect health again.

Albeit it implies that he has just returned, but I suppose you can argue that its not specific (at least not in the way of the one in KQ6 menu).

This one is for you Cray, another reference to the physicians who tried to help Graham (outside of the Companion), from the KQV manual;

In later years, King Graham's health began to fail, and the royal physicians were powerless to help him. Only a magical fruit from the faraway land of Tamir could bring about a cure and restore the health of Daventry's monarch. Graham's daughter, Princess Rosella, set off in pursuit of this healing magic for her father. On her journey, she performed many brave deeds, and had many great adventures. The chronicles of Rosella's travels and experiences in Tamir are described in King's Quest IV: The Perils of Rosella

If you read too much into that, though some might interpret that KQ4, took place several years after KQ3, LOL.

Those references are all just from the games and manuals, the material in some of the official hintbooks, and the King's Quest Companion, were a bit more specific (although these sources are more obscure of course, and less accessible to most fans);

This is from the KQ6 hintbook (article by Lorelei Shannon);

The pure delight of the prince's homecoming and Rosella's rescue was fated not to last. During the happy celebrations poor King Graham collapsed, clutching his chest. The day's events had been too much for his stout heart to take.

This is from the KQV hintbook (article by Roberta Williams);

Prince Alexander and Princess Rosella were tearfully and joyfully reuniting with their parents, King Graham and Queen Valanice, who had feared they had lost BOTH of their children to devious circumstances, when the stress of it all proved too much for King Graham. He was about to pass his old adventurer's hat on to his two children, when he was suddenly struck with a severe heart attack.

From the KQ7 hintbook (article by Lorelei Shannon);

The royal family of Daventry just can't get a break. During the big party after Alexander's return, poor King Graham collapsed. Watching his daughter almost get turned into Dragon Flambé and then suddenly finding his long-lost son was just too much for his heart to handle.

This is from an article in Insider Magazine by Roberta Williams;

From there, the two went home to a joyful reunion with their parents.

The saga of "King's Quest IV: The Perils of Rosella," begins where King's Quest III" leaves off. As the whole family was rejoicing in the return of Alexander and Rosella, King Graham was suddenly stricken with a severe heart attack. Doubling up in pain, he then fell to the floor while his shocked family rushed to his aid.

For last, here is some quotes from the King's Quest Companion;

In the space of two days, just before her eighteenth birthday, Rosella was tied to a stake and left as sacrifice to a draogn, was rescued by the brother she had never met and had thought dead, watched her father collapse into a near-death coma...

Rosella was gone but two or three hours when the gnome came shouting to the castle's gates that she was safe and well...This news, this happy shock, left Graham and I so weak-kneed that we literally could not stand after hearing it. Thus it was that we were sitting on our thrones to greet the daughter who came back to us as if from the dead. She was leading her long-lost and presumed-dead brother, our only son, Alexander, by the hand. It seems hours, but 'twas only minutes that we laughed and cried hugged and cried and cried some more...It lasted less than hour...Graham dropped to the floor clutching his chest.

[Blackthorne]

Well, exactly.  Almost all of those examples say "shortly", which can really be any length of time after his return.  I don't think it's much of a stretch, or that it changes anything to set it several months later.  I mean, if it was in "celebrations" of their returns, I'm sure they'd wanna clean up the wreck that was Daventry!

Heh.  Now I'm getting too pedantic about this kind of stuff.  Sometimes you have to just enjoy something without examining every little detail.  Also, when it comes to games, I tend to really only pay attention to what's in the actual game, not what accompanies it.  Sometimes the literature written for games slightly contradicts what happens IN game.


Bt

[Baggins]

Well, exactly.  Almost all of those examples say "shortly", which can really be any length of time after his return.

So we (and the English language) just have different interpretations of what "shortly" means, I'll give you that.

I've always heard "shortly" used in context of the same day in real life, in the English language.

shortly
adverb
1. soon, presently, before long, anon (archaic), in a little while, any minute now, erelong (archaic or poetic) Their trial will begin shortly.

I can't think of examples where 'shortly' has been used in context to mean several months in the future, in actual grammatical examples... But who knows maybe people do use the word in that context? Although I'm pretty sure most people would interpret it to mean within a few minutes or hours or so.

[Cez]

I guess we just have to all admit to the fact that we are all fan games, and any changes that we've made or not all pertain to our stories.

That has been my point since day one, regardless of how these games were billed, we have all changed the storylines. Some more than other, but we have all resourced to retconning in order to fit our own wishes and expectations first. Saying for example it was a technology limit is really not an excuse, you could have still worked something that would have been exactly the same.

But, I understand your wish to have changed it. It seemed a better choice to you and your team. And at the end of the day, it's your vision of KQ3.

Whether they change motivations, or not, whether some fans see it or not, whether we try to explain it through personal experiences or stuff we've never experienced, or whether we wanted to enhance it, the truth of the matter is that we are all doing the same.

What, in the end, has always bothered me, is that there seems to be a sense of rivalry from some members of IA towards TSL. I wouldn't say everyone because I have received personal email from some guys over there supporting us and I appreciate that a lot. But, in the end, I really don't understand this "we are doing it better than you" sort of thing. And pardon me if I'm getting the wrong impression, it's just that everytime I gazed over at those forums, I'm taken aback by the number of negative comments. We've tried to go over there, make our peace, and at the end nothing seems to work --which is why I told Weldon that the best thing we could do is keep our distance and not get involved anymore.

I seriously don't understand it because we have done nothing but express our gratitude over KQ3 VGA and our excitement over KoS and SQ2. If I truly wanted to put my producer/designer hat and criticize KQ3 VGA to the end, I could, especially over things that couldn't be helped, because they were a choice made by the team in style, etc I could nitpick it to the end, break it into pieces, and leave everyone with a sour taste in their mouths about my comments, and you would never hear the end of it. But seriously, what would be the point in slashing an incredibly amazing effort that I know by my own hand and experience how hard it is to put together. I'd expect it from the press or people that have no idea whatsoever what it is to do what we are doing. But from people that mirror efforts? I truly wish things were different and that things were more like it is with the guys at AGDI, but I guess it's a futile effort.

Again, that's not to say this happens with everyone, but I just keep scratching my head over why. We have all done a tremendous effort in keeping Sierra alive, and waving their flagship high and not letting the work of so many talented people fade into obscurity. Some have taken different approaches than others, but at the end, our legacy is that we are making thousand of fans happy. All of us. And that's what we should cherish.  

[Cez]

Well, exactly.  Almost all of those examples say "shortly", which can really be any length of time after his return.

So we (and the English language) just have different interpretations of what "shortly" means, I'll give you that.

I've always heard "shortly" used in context of the same day in real life, in the English language.

shortly
adverb
1. soon, presently, before long, anon (archaic), in a little while, any minute now, erelong (archaic or poetic) Their trial will begin shortly.

I can't think of examples where 'shortly' has been used in context to mean several months in the future, in actual grammatical examples... But who knows maybe people do use the word in that context? Although I'm pretty sure most people would interpret it to mean within a few minutes or hours or so.

To be completely fair, "shortly" could mean more than a day. When you say things like "Shortly after they returned to the city, they became engaged in gambling activities" for example, that doesn't mean the same day. In that sentence, I would interpret it as in "a few days or weeks after". Another example would be "Shortly after X became CEO of the company, he implemented new laws that changed its structure". That's definitely not the same day kind of deal.

But, in your defense, it depends on the context. "I'll give it to you shortly" does indeed mean in the next few minutes.

[Big C from Cauney island]

I have to say, I don't understand people getting upset over video games. I'm as big a fan as any, and played the ALL the original "quest" games in the 80s.  They were a major part of my childhood, and suprisingly happy to see them back regardless of who makes them.  Even with as much passion as I have for this stuff, I still can't fathom people getting upset over it. I would think people would be happy regardless.  I have read a lot of nit picking in the forums, and stuff downright rude.  I understand passion, but there is a limit when it comes to showing respect to other people, especially people with the same general interests.  I'm truly baffled. I don't think ANYTHING can be said and just say "oh, it's passion. We want to help". No, don't think so. Just rude.  I really applaud the team for trying to listen to others on a variety of topics.  I know this is off topic, but this has to be said. And I'm an extremely laid back guy, this is the closest to "negative" I could get.  Can't we all just get along?   

[Blackthorne]

Actually, Cez, I just came over to give my perspective on the changes I wrote into our version of KQ3, not to compare them to any ideas or changes you made for TSL.  I just thought since it was being discussed, someone would probably like the opinion right from the horses mouth... it wasn't to make any kind of comparisons or judgments on your work.  I was just offering my opinions as a writer on my own motivations to the changes I made.

If there's any kind of rivalry, it's friendly, really.  People often love to compete and compare and sometimes we play into that.  At the end of the day, though, I know I have a tremendous amount of respect for the PoS team and their games - I know how hard it is to make a game, especially freeware, and how much time and effort goes into it.  In reading all these forums we all frequent, I've noticed that Sierra fans are some of the most particular and pedantic fans around - they're ravenous about the games, and that might lead to some silly arguments - but the truth is, we all love the games.  And I love that our passions are keeping them alive. 


Bt
 

[Baggins]

I guess we just have to all admit to the fact that we are all fan games, and any changes that we've made or not all pertain to our stories.

That has been my point since day one, regardless of how these games were billed, we have all changed the storylines. Some more than other, but we have all resourced to retconning in order to fit our own wishes and expectations first. Saying for example it was a technology limit is really not an excuse, you could have still worked something that would have been exactly the same.

I think this is what I've personally come to expect from the various fan communities, I don't think there is one group that hasn't resorted to rewriting or reinterpreting some aspect of the games in some way. Other than say KQ1 VGA, which more or less just was a remake of KQ1SCI with a facelift with some art changes here or there.

[Lambonius]

I can't think of examples where 'shortly' has been used in context to mean several months in the future, in actual grammatical examples... But who knows maybe people do use the word in that context? Although I'm pretty sure most people would interpret it to mean within a few minutes or hours or so.

Are you serious?  

The meaning of chronological terms, with the exception of words that specifically refer to set increments (like minutes, hours, days, etc.) are ALWAYS contextual.  This means that in the case of Alexander's absence, which was 18 YEARS, BTW, "shortly" most certainly could describe a couple of months.  I mean, come on, a couple of months is a few heartbeats in the context of an 18 year stretch of time.  

In reading all these forums we all frequent, I've noticed that Sierra fans are some of the most particular and pedantic fans around - they're ravenous about the games, and that might lead to some silly arguments - but the truth is, we all love the games.  And I love that our passions are keeping them alive.

Yeah, I definitely agree with this.  Honestly, I've never been one to get super nitpicky and pedantic about stuff.  Sierra games are literally the ONLY thing I get that way about.  And honestly, I have no friggin' idea why.

Well, actually, I get that way about Indiana Jones stuff, too, but yeah--only Sierra games and Indy.  hehe.  I guess that's just what it means to be a nerd about stuff.    We've all been there.

[Novem]

If I truly wanted to put my producer/designer hat and criticize KQ3 VGA to the end, [...] I could nitpick it to the end, break it into pieces...

Really? I think KQ3VGA was excellent. I can't remember things that bothered me.

[Baggins]

Are you serious?

Should I bring up thesaurus and definitions?

Main Entry:  shortly  
Part of Speech:  adverb  
Definition:  right away  
Synonyms:  anon, any minute now, before long, by and by, in a little while, presently, proximately, quickly, soon  
Antonyms:  later  

and webster (which I suppose has American english bias);

short·ly adv \ˈshȯrt-lē\
Definition of SHORTLY
1a : in a few words : briefly b : in an abrupt manner
2a : in a short time <we will be there shortly> b : at a short interval <shortly after sunset>

Shortly:
2at or within a short time <the meeting will begin shortly, so don't go too far away to find a bathroom>
Synonyms anon, before long, by and by, directly, momentarily, presently, soon
Related Words forthwith, immediately, incontinently, instantaneously, instantly, now, promptly, pronto, right away, right now, right off, straightaway, straightway

For good measure, here is Oxford which uses a context with perhaps a bit more giving.

shortly (short·ly)
Syllabification: On Off Pronunciation:/ˈSHôrtlē/
adverb
1 in a short time ; soon:
the new database will shortly be available for consultation

the flight was hijacked shortly after takeoff

On average its a term that is used for minutes, hours, maybe days, and even a few weeks if one stretches it (although that is not a definition that standardized dictionaries or thesauri seem to have to accepted as of yet, so perhap it would be 'slang' use of the term), but not several months. Not saying that it can't be forced into other contexts as slang, but by definition means something much less (in standardardized dictionaries/thesaurus of the English language).

For that matter the context was within "shortly" after saving his sister" and/or "shortly after he returned to Daventry", it had nothing to do with the relation to his 17 years living in Llewdor (the time it is referring to starts after his return, and after he saved his sister, not from the moment he was living in llewdor).

Besides we know what Sierra's context for the sentence was, don't you know? I've put up all the information that  denotes what context the designers were going for.

Why else do you think Roberta Williams herself, went on to say that while the family was reuniting, the stress was too much for Graham and he had a heart attack?

You can admit that you changed the information, but in no way can you state that you were using Sierra's context. That would be dishonesty on your part.

I should ask you the question 'are you serious'? Can you 'seriously' state that you stuck to the context that Sierra themselves were using with a straight face?

When Cez said;

I guess we just have to all admit to the fact that we are all fan games, and any changes that we've made or not all pertain to our stories.

That has been my point since day one, regardless of how these games were billed, we have all changed the storylines. Some more than other, but we have all resourced to retconning in order to fit our own wishes and expectations first. Saying for example it was a technology limit is really not an excuse, you could have still worked something that would have been exactly the same.

He is certainly correct.

How do you think TSL fan base would have reacted, if POS had said that they would be releasing TSL, "shortly", and it took 3 months to 10 years for them to release it? If you use that term, first thing people think will probably be within a few days at the most. There are better phrases to use, if its going to be weeks, or months, or years from the point in time of the phrase.

Besides Lambonius weren't you the one earlier in this thread wondering why TSL wasn't maintaining continuity between all the official sources? You do know that same accusation can be made for KQ3+ as well right? This is the point Cez has been trying to make. You honestly can't defend one, and try to argue for the other, when both have "changed things".

In reading all these forums we all frequent, I've noticed that Sierra fans are some of the most particular and
pedantic fans around - they're ravenous about the games, and that might lead to some silly arguments - but the truth is, we all love the games.  And I love that our passions are keeping them alive.

Then you have never encountered discussions with star trek fans, star wars fans, stargate fans, or any large franchise there are large numbers of fans. I've found Splinter Cell fans to be exactly the same as well. Oh, I've had discussions with Highlander fans, and Warcraft fans as well that are exactly the same. Perhaps worse. Actually if encounterWarcraft fans, many would be crying foul if you attempted to make a fan game :p. Though that might have something to do with the fact that Warcraft is still a living IP... Who knows what they would do if their was a 10-15 year period since the last game in the series.

To be honest I think King's Quest is probably small time compared to kind of debates that arise out of popular franchises with large fan bases. Those are dog eat dog... and it sometimes spills over to two violent debates between fans of two seperate franchises, i.e. star trek vs. star wars debates. Both trying to prove the technology in their favorite euniverse is more powerful than the other fan's universe (in case where the fans like one franchise but not the other).

[Lambonius]

Most of those definitions don't directly support your argument.    In fact, I'd say they would further support the argument that the word is totally contextual.  You can certainly use it to express a period of a few minutes or hours, but you could also say something like "Shortly after George W. Bush took office, he was forced to deal with the worst terrorist attack ever to happen on American soil."  In that case, "shortly" obviously means several month, which is a short period in the context of the 8 years Bush was in office.

I'm happy to admit that the original designers didn't conceive of the reunion that way, but if you're going purely by what's in the game, it really doesn't directly contradict the intro of KQ4 as you guys are implying. 

[Baggins]

Shortly after George W. Bush took office, he was forced to deal with the worst terrorist attack ever to happen on American soil."

I wouldn't use a sentence like that it, its so imprecise, and has accuracy issues, 9/11 actually took place almost a year into his office, almost 9 months to be exact. I wouldn't call that "shortly", nor would I call it "soon".

It would be have been better to write the sentence using, a more specific qualifier, like "within months" of taking office, or "within a year" of taking office. In my years of writing, that's one of the things they drummed into me, when there are more precise qualifiers, "use them", it improves accuracy.

In world of politics, a year into office can be a lifetime... Look how much blame for various things Bush received one year into office, and look how much blame Obama has been receiving for various things one year into office (it's gotten worse now that he's two years in)...

Your sentence also doesn't specify that its looking at his complete time in office as a whole, but you started it from the moment he took office. Which again I would argue almost a year into office is not a shortly after. If you meant for it to refer to the whole time in office, you should have specified that within your sentence (or added an additional sentence within the quotes), to show that was the context you were going for.

[Lambonius]

Shortly after George W. Bush took office, he was forced to deal with the worst terrorist attack ever to happen on American soil."

I wouldn't use a sentence like that it, its so imprecise, and has accuracy issues, 9/11 actually took place almost a year into his office, almost 9 months to be exact. I wouldn't call that "shortly", nor would I call it "soon".

It would be have been better to write the sentence using, a more specific qualifier, like "within months" of taking office, or "within a year" of taking office. In my years of writing, that's one of the things they drummed into me, when there are more precise qualifiers, "use them", it improves accuracy.

Heh...I'm not saying it was the best way to say it--just saying you could use that word and it would still work. 

[Baggins]

And I disagree. You didn't specify within the sentence, (the sentence within quotations) that the context you were going for was in relationship his entire time in office. You only stated, from the time he took office (January 20th, btw) to Sept 11, nothing in the sentence indicates that you were looking at his "entire time in office". I and many would argue that nearly one year into office is not a "shortly after taking office". One year into office, is enough time for presidents to start receiving blaim for anything that happens while they are under office. It was enough time for Bush to be blamed for 9/11, although many tried to blame Clinton, and one year is enough for Obama to be blamed for any conceived problems (although many try to blame bush). A year in office in president can be a lifetime... Seriously just look how much Obama has aged since he took office (and its been two years), LOL.

If you had written it as;

"Shortly within George W. Bush's two presidential terms, he was forced to deal with the worst terrorist attack ever to happen on American soil."

The context you were going for would have been more clear. Hell you could have even combined the fact you were trying to include the context of within his entire time in office, in a second sentence within those quotes to specify the context you were going for. But you didn't. All you did was try to explain that the sentence alone, contained context that specified that it was meant to be comparing his entire term in office (yet I disagree that the sentence alone contains that kind of specific information).

[Blackthorne]

Baggins, you crazy! 


Bt

[Baggins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yGJGTjV2WE