Author Topic: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback  (Read 10845 times)

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2010, 04:07:14 PM »
Those darn Capulets! >:(
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline darthkiwi

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2010, 05:04:12 PM »
 ::) She's allowed to say it: it screws up the metre otherwise  ;D
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Offline Haids1987

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2010, 05:33:35 PM »
Hmmm.  So does that make Juliet unintelligent, even if she's allowed to say it?
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Offline Cez

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2010, 05:41:17 PM »
I'm interested in hearing how people make the excuse for Shakespeare now ;) I'm not buying the first attempt at it :P

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.03.0080%3Asection%3D4%3Asubsection%3D11%3Aparagraph%3D343
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 05:49:52 PM by Cez »


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Offline Delling

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2010, 06:08:55 PM »
XD I was going to mention that VERY perseus.tufts article earlier! XD


Given the setting, you could permit it from a character for the purposes of meter on those grounds, but a big point of that article comes about in the first paragraph:

Quote
Owing to the tendency to drop the inflection en, the Elizabethan authors frequently used the curtailed forms of past participles which are common in Early English: [...]

This practice was common in Early English. One can't say "Languages evolves so I don't have to obey grammar!" and then say "Ah, yes, but 800 some odd years ago (I've no idea if I got that century right), it was grammatically or at least colloquially acceptable to speak like this"... One cannot on the first hand discard linguistic authority (for something standard within the last 50 years) by debasing it in favor of an ever changing language and then on the second hand summon up those same linguistic resources (from centuries before that even) as justification for an error.

Which I'm not saying Cez was (forgive my use of the generic third person "you" nevermind, I changed them all to "one"s :P)... I have just encountered that EXACT argument before. ::)


To put it another way, English was going through puberty and what inflection went where was a rather fluid thing at the time (and Shakespeare took advantage)... now English is more of a grumpy old man who wishes all these newfangled dialects and accents would stay off of his lawn.
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
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...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

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Offline Cez

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2010, 06:25:10 PM »
Then again, since King's Quest takes place in what we believe is the same time period (or actually, earlier), you could call it correct, right? If it was something that was used commonly in those times, a character could have said it and it would still be "historically" right (unless it was the narrator).

I honestly don't know what line it is, and I honestly don't know if it was intentional or not. I do know that for the purposes of writing TSL, I re-read a lot of Shakespeare at the time (hence why all the subtitles are Shakespeare inspired). Especially since some of the characters you encountered in later chapters used the Olde English of Hath and Thou. So it's very possible that it came directly from that. I also made the point for example of not using words like "OK" (outside the narrator), and for example, Graham, most of the times, says "Thank You" instead of "Thanks" --But it's possible there are "thanks" in there.

At the end, we decided to go with a mix between modern and old to make it a bit more accessible, but it is very plausible that's where that comes from.

It would be bad if it was found in the modern world of C9, but on TSL? If it was used back then, what's so bad about it?


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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2010, 08:03:26 PM »
On the subject of Shakespeare, this is by far the best fan-written Shakespeare-inspired adaptation EVER.

Watch and laugh thine ass off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNLrCoPzbs

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2010, 11:43:43 PM »
So does that make Juliet unintelligent,
......she's a fourteen year old girl who got married and killed herself over a boy she'd known for roughly a week. How she talks is the *least* significant thing indicating that she's unintelligent. :P
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2010, 12:10:19 AM »
So does that make Juliet unintelligent,
......she's a fourteen year old girl who got married and killed herself over a boy she'd known for roughly a week. How she talks is the *least* significant thing indicating that she's unintelligent. :P

Hahaha...too true.

Offline spinz

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2010, 05:58:36 PM »
edit: i guess the "have took" thing doesnt really matter ;) It just seems silly and out of place, but definitely doesnt matter.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 06:17:13 PM by spinz »

Offline Damar

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2010, 07:07:28 PM »
On the subject of Shakespeare, this is by far the best fan-written Shakespeare-inspired adaptation EVER.

Watch and laugh thine ass off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNLrCoPzbs

I am compelled to point out that this is one of the most brilliant things I have seen in recent memory.  And that guy is doing a dead on John Goodman!  The guy who wrote that is incredible.  Anyway, back to the actual topic, after that quick aside.

Personally I didn't notice much as far as egregious grammatical errors.  In a couple places I felt some of the dialogue seemed stilted or it just didn't flow naturally, but it didn't take me out of the game particularly, so I just shook it off.

Offline colin

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2010, 07:58:08 PM »
I Just don't understand people complaining about the narrator or grammer errors or plot holes.
Sure I noticed little things that don't add up, but I am enjoying it for what it is.
The story and the music are awesome. I love going over Episode 2 in particular again and again.
And I can't wait for episodes 3,4, 5 & C9 and any future projects.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 08:39:17 PM by colin »

Offline Haids1987

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2010, 11:46:49 PM »
So does that make Juliet unintelligent,
......she's a fourteen year old girl who got married and killed herself over a boy she'd known for roughly a week. How she talks is the *least* significant thing indicating that she's unintelligent. :P
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Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2010, 12:10:42 AM »
Actually, the foolishness of Romeo and Juliet is a major part of the point of the story as it was originally told pre-Shakespeare. The main morals of the story are: hatred kills love, killing breeds killing, and love is foolish (it's sort of like "love is blind" but, y'know, slightly different.) So, I am not underanalyzing. I'm pointing out one of the main facets of the story -- they're idiots.
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Offline Haids1987

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2010, 12:41:54 AM »
Fair enough.
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Offline darthkiwi

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #55 on: October 02, 2010, 06:47:12 AM »
Quote
Then again, since King's Quest takes place in what we believe is the same time period (or actually, earlier),


Than qhi, min hlaford, speketh they not inne this maner?  :suffer:
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Offline Big C from Cauney island

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2010, 07:34:57 AM »
On the subject of Shakespeare, this is by far the best fan-written Shakespeare-inspired adaptation EVER.

Watch and laugh thine ass off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNLrCoPzbs

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Guy is a comedic master.

Offline Damar

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2010, 09:01:03 AM »
Actually, the foolishness of Romeo and Juliet is a major part of the point of the story as it was originally told pre-Shakespeare. The main morals of the story are: hatred kills love, killing breeds killing, and love is foolish (it's sort of like "love is blind" but, y'know, slightly different.) So, I am not underanalyzing. I'm pointing out one of the main facets of the story -- they're idiots.

Agreed, and Shakespeare himself loved the tragic heroes, who were good people, but whose faults led them to their downfall.  Romeo and Juliet were teenagers.  Brutus loved Rome too much so that Cassius could manipulate that to make him lose sight of what actually mattered and justify killing his friend.  Othello was naive, not because he was stupid, but because he was a military commander who could just not conceive that someone under his command would lie to him for no discernible motive.  Hamlet was too indecisive and it took his own imminent death (and the slaughter of everyone around him) for him to finally do something.  The list goes on and on.

Anyway, it occurred to me that there was one issue that tended to crop up in the writing of TSL that bugged me.  I will hasten to point out (as I have in the past) that it doesn't ruin the game for me, but it does bug me when it happens.  That is when we get some of the longer back stories, which I know have meaning for the writer, because they can picture it happening, but when we as an audience hear it, it just doesn't have an effect.  An example would be Edgar talking about how Rosella had him dress up in a disguise during the Mask of Eternity celebration.  Yes, it tells us a bit about Rosella, but we never saw that as an audience, so what we have are two characters sharing an inside joke that we have no context for.  It just doesn't translate as well.  And, in general, I did feel some of the exposition about Rosella got to be a bit much.  We're at a point that we need to actually meet her, not just hear about her.  Otherwise it seems like trying to build exposition on something that doesn't exist.  Now, I have no doubt that this issue is exacerbated by the fact that there's time between episodes, which makes it seem like we've gone an eternity without seeing Rosella.  If we were just playing the game straight through, that issue might not be as major.  That said, though, I know I'm at a point where I don't want to hear about what a free spirit and how willful Rosella is.  I want to see her act these things out in her dream world or in a flashback, or something that gives more context and meaning than two people talking about it.

Another example of exposition that just didn't seem to work for me would be the vases in the castle and the sour grapes.  In both cases it reminded me of many conversations I've had with my sister, where she says, "The funniest thing happened!" and then proceeds to tell me this long story, which then ends with a punchline and total silence on my end.  Because you just had to be there.  The humor doesn't translate.  I literally had that thought with the sour grapes story.  When the narrator gave Rosella's response of "No, they were sour!" I basically just nodded my head and thought, "I guess I just had to be there."  It's an easy trap to fall in to.  Heck, we've all been there, we've all told those stories, and we've all sat through those stories.  And I know if I'm writing something, I do the same thing.  I find myself writing long exposition which I find fascinating, because I'm imagining it, because I'm creating the situation, the facial expressions, the tone, everything.  But once an audience is there, they don't get that, and the story loses context and the meaning drains out.

Like I said though, it doesn't ruin the game (not even mildly), mainly because you don't have to look at the vases or the sour grapes to beat the game.  If every little thing you did brought out a long story without the context of having been there, then I'd say it's a problem.  But it's just a few optional places that leave me thinking, "I appreciate what the writer is trying to do, but it's become lost in translation."

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2010, 09:56:12 AM »
Damar, that's an excellent point.

When a writer is creating a fictional narrative, it is often helpful for the writer to create long back stories for his characters as part of the creative process, so that he better understands their motivation when they react to situations created in the actual narrative itself.  But you don't want to tell the audience the whole back story.  It's not necessary for the audience to know these things, and from a pacing standpoint, including these in the narrative itself typically brings the flow of the story to an awkward screeching halt, which I think happens in TSL quite a few times, so far.  It's not that the back story itself is bad, it's just that the audience doesn't need to hear it--it breaks the pacing of the adventure and as you correctly pointed out, a lot of the emotional impact of it is lost in translation.

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Writing Quality in TSL Feedback
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2010, 09:58:49 AM »
Well, Rosella & Alex are kind of in a coma/magical deep sleep, so....meeting them directly is a bit problematic. ;)

And, if you read the Four Winds, the occasion Edgar is talking about is also mentioned in the article about Connor's knighting in Issue 1. Not the same I know, but just sayin'. :)

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