Author Topic: Gold...or is it?  (Read 22977 times)

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2010, 01:12:24 PM »
The Mag-Gnats feet are gold.... unlike most magnets. I hadn't noticed that but maybe that has something to do with it?
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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2010, 02:03:27 PM »
At least, I've never seen a magnet with eyes or arms that could walk around by itself.
Perhaps not, but that's not exactly his point.

Right, I do understand that, I just find it amusing that there's even a debate at all about why it isn't logical for a walking magnet to be able to attract gold.  And this is being complained about on an island ruled by walking and talking chess pieces, which is also guarded by gnomes who each apparently possess only one sense.
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Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2010, 02:15:15 PM »
Don't forget that there's animals that embody grammatical concepts and can only speak in those concepts and any number of other completely out-of-your-mind bizarre things going on.
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Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2010, 02:33:43 PM »
The difference is that those characters personify the objects and concepts they resemble and represent them well. Ignoring and violating this principle defies the very thing that gave the Isle of Wonder its unique character. It is NOT simply "the land where there are no rules and anything goes".

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2010, 03:28:23 PM »
The difference is that those characters personify the objects and concepts they resemble and represent them well.

So you're fine with iceberg lettuce that is actually made of ice, tomatos that talk, ferns that cry, chess pieces that bicker, and a sentient "hole" that can be carried around, but you take beef with a magnetic creature that is attracted to metals that are normally not magnetic?  Having a magnet that attracts gold is no more illogical than any of the other things taking place on the Isle of Wonder, and is actually far MORE logical than many things that you find throughout earlier King's Quest games.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2010, 03:33:25 PM »
The difference is that those characters personify the objects and concepts they resemble and represent them well. Ignoring and violating this principle defies the very thing that gave the Isle of Wonder its unique character. It is NOT simply "the land where there are no rules and anything goes".

Agreed.  Without some in-game explanation that clarifies why this particular magnet has properties that other magnets don't, it just comes off as sloppy logic.

And I'm sorry, but nitpicking stuff is just what fans do.  We nitpick the s*** out of the old games, why should you guys be any different?  :)

(Posted on: October 11, 2010, 05:31:08 PM)


The difference is that those characters personify the objects and concepts they resemble and represent them well.

So you're fine with iceberg lettuce that is actually made of ice, tomatos that talk, ferns that cry, chess pieces that bicker, and a sentient "hole" that can be carried around, but you take beef with a magnetic creature that is attracted to metals that are normally not magnetic?  Having a magnet that attracts gold is no more illogical than any of the other things taking place on the Isle of Wonder, and is actually far MORE logical than many things that you find throughout earlier King's Quest games.

I don't think the comparison is valid.  You're talking about puns and personifications of standard concepts vs. a personified object that defies the concept it is supposed to be personifying.  None of the other characters do that.  None of them.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 03:40:38 PM by Lambonius »

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2010, 03:51:47 PM »
Magnets attract metal, there's nothing odd about that.  It's not like we have him attracting feathers or water or something.  He just attracts a slightly different type of metal than a normal magnet.  If we wanted a magnet that only attracted normally magnetic metals then we wouldn't have used one that's alive.

I'm sure you'll then say, "But magnets don't attract gold."  Well, iceberg lettuce doesn't melt.  And baby's tears don't cry.  And there's nothing about snapdragons that makes them dancing in KQ6 a pun in any way.

Nitpick all you like, but there's a difference between nitpicking and just being ridiculous - there's nothing suddenly "illogical" about a magnet attracting gold in a game series that uses cheese to recharge a magic wand.
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Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2010, 03:53:48 PM »
So you're fine with iceberg lettuce that is actually made of ice, tomatos that talk, ferns that cry, chess pieces that bicker, and a sentient "hole" that can be carried around, but you take beef with a magnetic creature that is attracted to metals that are normally not magnetic?

Yes. There is a running theme in the original objects in KQ6 that you're obviously missing.

Quote
Having a magnet that attracts gold is no more illogical than any of the other things taking place on the Isle of Wonder, and is actually far MORE logical than many things that you find throughout earlier King's Quest games.

On what grounds? I've already laid out my case. The objects in KQ6 take on the same properties of the items they represent. The iceberg lettuce takes on the properties of both ice and lettuce. The baby's tears take on the properties of the plant as well as babies. The rotten tomato, bump-on-a-log, stick-in-the-mud, clinging vines, bookworm, etc. all take on the properties of the literal and the figurative uses of those terms. The living chess pieces are competitive. And so on. The Mag-Gnat does NOT carry the properties of a magnet. This goes against everything the Isle of Wonder is.

You're putting too much stock into the idea that the Isle of Wonder is simply the Land of Arbitrary and anything ridiculous flies. You couldn't be more wrong. The rules on the Isle of Wonder are different, but there are still rules in place. That's what makes the place interesting.

Offline Cez

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2010, 03:56:20 PM »
Since this is something that won't be fixed, it's already out, and people haven't been stuck because it's illogical to use gold on a magnet --which shows you people like to think outside the box, and that's what adventure games are about--, this discussion is rather pointless, don't you all think? :)

Shady, you are very stubborn when you come about trying to make a remark about a game's flaw (Like with Deloria, I'd love to hear a good remark for once), so yes, you are right, whatever makes your heart happy, you win.

(For the record, I don't agree with you)

Now we can move on? :)


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Offline KatieHal

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2010, 03:58:40 PM »
The Mag-Gnat does NOT carry the properties of a magnet. This goes against everything the Isle of Wonder is.

You're putting too much stock into the idea that the Isle of Wonder is simply the Land of Arbitrary and anything ridiculous flies. You couldn't be more wrong. The rules on the Isle of Wonder are different, but there are still rules in place. That's what makes the place interesting.

Yes it does. The Mag-Gnat attracts things made of metal. That is the basic idea behind a magnet; the Mag-Gnat is that, with a twist. Just like everything else there is like its real-world basis item, but with a twist. You're making it sound like what we have it used for makes NO SENSE whatsoever. It's not like we have the Mag-Gnat getting milked like a cow or conducting a symphony or singing an aria--it's attracting something to it that is made of metal. Something different--as gold is not magnetic--but still adhering to the basic principle of what a magnet does.

But yes, obviously you aren't going to agree with us, and we aren't going to agree with you. So continuing the debate seems rather pointless. 

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Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2010, 04:00:48 PM »
Magnets attract metal, there's nothing odd about that.  It's not like we have him attracting feathers or water or something.  He just attracts a slightly different type of metal than a normal magnet.  If we wanted a magnet that only attracted normally magnetic metals then we wouldn't have used one that's alive.

An object coming to life on the Isle of Wonder has never before changed the object's properties.

Quote
I'm sure you'll then say, "But magnets don't attract gold."  Well, iceberg lettuce doesn't melt.  And baby's tears don't cry.  And there's nothing about snapdragons that makes them dancing in KQ6 a pun in any way.

But ice DOES melt. Babies DO cry. Neither magnets nor gnats attract gold.

Quote
Nitpick all you like, but there's a difference between nitpicking and just being ridiculous - there's nothing suddenly "illogical" about a magnet attracting gold in a game series that uses cheese to recharge a magic wand.

You're going to switch games to support your argument? The rules on the Isle of Wonder don't even apply to the rest of KQ6!

Offline Cez

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2010, 04:05:50 PM »
Magnets attract metal, there's nothing odd about that.  It's not like we have him attracting feathers or water or something.  He just attracts a slightly different type of metal than a normal magnet.  If we wanted a magnet that only attracted normally magnetic metals then we wouldn't have used one that's alive.

An object coming to life on the Isle of Wonder has never before changed the object's properties.


Yeah? Since when has the Iceberg Lettuce been freezing cold?


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Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2010, 04:14:22 PM »
Mmhmm....so, by your logic Shady.... Hole-in-the-Wall should have something to do with a dingy bar. Or should dispense money ("hole in the wall"British slang for ATM -- though I think I'd rather say ATM, wouldn't you?).

But, no, Hole-in-the-Wall is simply a hole in a wall.... that you can pick up and move. Gosh, that seems silly and defies all reasoning but it doesn't have anything at all to do with the concept of a hole in the wall. In fact, all it really is is a plot device necessary for a puzzle later in the game that didn't fit in anywhere so they put it on the Isle of Wonder.

Did you have issues with Hole-in-the-Wall when KQ6 came out? Because by the logic you just argued, you should have.

Aside from that, in King's Quest lore -- you know, the rules of the world we're discussing -- it's meant to be a crazy illogical place that defies the laws of physics. It says it in the KQ6 manual: http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Guidebook_to_the_Land_of_the_Green_Isles#PART_III_The_Isle_of_Wonder
It describes just a few things that conflict with your theory...like talking sand grains.

Mostly I'd like to direct you to this quote: "But be warned those travellers who like to know, exactly what to expect from life would be well advised to go elsewhere."
If it all followed the laws of physics, you'd know what to expect. So, clearly, the Mag-Gnat is *not* in defiance of what the Isle of Wonder is.

Besides, as you JUST said... if the rules of the rest of KQ games don't apply to the Isle of Wonder why would the rules of anywhere else apply to the Isle of Wonder? That is what I like to call "the kind of logic that isn't" -- and for someone who's debating the logic of the Mag-Gnat, shouldn't you be trying to be logical?

Basically, what I'm trying to say is just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
Lambonius is right also, in that the team has offered similar reasons to past issues which basically means "Oh we didn't think of this, but it's too late to go back and fix it". The "it's the Isle of Wonder" excuse is a lot less flimsy than some excuses they could have given.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2010, 04:37:09 PM »
Mmhmm....so, by your logic Shady.... Hole-in-the-Wall should have something to do with a dingy bar. Or should dispense money ("hole in the wall"British slang for ATM -- though I think I'd rather say ATM, wouldn't you?).

But, no, Hole-in-the-Wall is simply a hole in a wall.... that you can pick up and move. Gosh, that seems silly and defies all reasoning but it doesn't have anything at all to do with the concept of a hole in the wall. In fact, all it really is is a plot device necessary for a puzzle later in the game that didn't fit in anywhere so they put it on the Isle of Wonder.

Did you have issues with Hole-in-the-Wall when KQ6 came out? Because by the logic you just argued, you should have.

You definitely misunderstand shady's logic if that's what you think he's arguing.  He's saying that there was a definite theme to the Isle of Wonder objects.  Either they were puns where figurative names were given literal form (i.e. the Hole-in-the-Wall, iceberg lettuce, babies' tears, rotten tomato, etc.) OR they were inanimate objects personified (i.e. the competitive Chess pieces.)  The Mag-gnat doesn't really fit the mold, is what he's saying.  Which is true.  Granted, it didn't really ruin anything for me, I'm just making a point here.  :)

Also, I think you guys are being too hard on shady here.  He hasn't been overly negative--he's just being argumentative because people are ganging up on him.  You guys should step back and just indulge the thread for what it is, fan nit-picking and friendly (until the team started jumping down people's throats, of course ::)) dissection of the puzzles and game logic, nothing more.  The hubris on display by everyone else here is really unbecoming and unprofessional.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 04:41:26 PM by Lambonius »

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2010, 06:01:11 PM »
You definitely misunderstand shady's logic if that's what you think he's arguing.  He's saying that there was a definite theme to the Isle of Wonder objects.  Either they were puns where figurative names were given literal form (i.e. the Hole-in-the-Wall, iceberg lettuce, babies' tears, rotten tomato, etc.) OR they were inanimate objects personified (i.e. the competitive Chess pieces.)  The Mag-gnat doesn't really fit the mold, is what he's saying.  Which is true.  Granted, it didn't really ruin anything for me, I'm just making a point here.  :)
I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified. It's not even sentient til it appears in TSL -- it's just a cartoony looking Hole-in-the-Wall that skitters around and squeaks in KQ6. You don't personify something into an animal, then it wouldn't be personification. It would be.... animalification!

Quote
Also, I think you guys are being too hard on shady here.  He hasn't been overly negative--he's just being argumentative because people are ganging up on him.  You guys should step back and just indulge the thread for what it is, fan nit-picking and friendly (until the team started jumping down people's throats, of course ::)) dissection of the puzzles and game logic, nothing more.  The hubris on display by everyone else here is really unbecoming and unprofessional.
On the one hand, I can see how we're being harsh.... but the team did accept what he said and offered an explanation since they can't go back and fix it now (I mean, if you couldn't tell that's what the explanation was for there's no way you're smart enough to have beaten all the King's Quest games! :P) -- which was then not enough. The more "Yeah but no cuz" someone says, obviously the more frustrated everyone else is going to get. I'm not trying to mean, I'm just saying... even just reading this thread got me frustrated. I can only imagine how the team feels about the topic by now.
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Offline waltzdancing

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2010, 06:08:13 PM »
Let's not get argumentative guys.  ;) If you would like to debate that is okay but this looks like it might be going down hill. Just a heads up.

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2010, 06:17:45 PM »

I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified.

It's a common figurative phrase, "Hole in the Wall," given literal form (turned into a character.)  This exactly fits the mold as I described it.  ;)

Offline threej_lc

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2010, 06:22:28 PM »
I actually agree with Shady.  When I was playing, I was like, "Huh?  That's not right..."  But then I took the fact that the Magnat automatically tries to steal the gold when you touch it as kind of an apology-- "Listen, we know magnets don't attract gold, so we're gonna show you up front that this one does so you can get the puzzle solved." 

No, its not in line with the punny logic of the Isle of Wonder.  But as someone mentioned earlier, it is in line with using cheese to power up a wand-- sometimes things just work that way because that's how the writer wanted it to work, not because its the most rock-solid plot device.  And as long as there's enough hints to make one figure out how to proceed, well, oh well.

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2010, 06:28:54 PM »

I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified.

It's a common figurative phrase, "Hole in the Wall," given literal form (turned into a character.)  This exactly fits the mold as I described it.  ;)

It would, except the figurative phrase "Hole in the Wall" has nothing to do with either holes or walls.
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Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2010, 06:48:14 PM »

I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified.

It's a common figurative phrase, "Hole in the Wall," given literal form (turned into a character.)  This exactly fits the mold as I described it.  ;)

It would, except the figurative phrase "Hole in the Wall" has nothing to do with either holes or walls.
I don't think I've ever heard the phrase you guys are talking about. It's a dive bar, or it's an ATM. That's all I got.

According to Urban Dictionary there's a third meaning but I PROMISE that's not what they were referencing in KQ6.  :o :o :sweating:

(In the case of the former it does have to do with walls -- in a big city a dive bar is stereotypically a tiny little place shoved between two buildings like.... a hole in the wall.
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