Author Topic: Gold...or is it?  (Read 22976 times)

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2010, 07:00:06 PM »

I still don't see how the Hole-in-the-Wall fits the mold. It is not personified.

It's a common figurative phrase, "Hole in the Wall," given literal form (turned into a character.)  This exactly fits the mold as I described it.  ;)

It would, except the figurative phrase "Hole in the Wall" has nothing to do with either holes or walls.

Hence the word "figurative" used as a descriptor.

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2010, 07:09:13 PM »
You're applying a double-standard.  Iceberg lettuce is both an iceberg and lettuce.  Baby's tears are actual baby plants that cry.  The wallflowers fit their figurative use of "wallflowers" at a dance or something.  They're flowers that stand by the wall and are shy.  The hole in the wall is not figurative at all, it's a hole that you use to look through the wall.  The "figurative" meaning of hole in the wall has nothing to do with looking through an actual wall at all.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2010, 07:15:09 PM »
You're applying a double-standard.  Iceberg lettuce is both an iceberg and lettuce.  Baby's tears are actual baby plants that cry.  The wallflowers fit their figurative use of "wallflowers" at a dance or something.  They're flowers that stand by the wall and are shy.  The hole in the wall is not figurative at all, it's a hole that you use to look through the wall.  The "figurative" meaning of hole in the wall has nothing to do with looking through an actual wall at all.

No.  If you reread my posts, you'll see that I said that the figurative PHRASE "Hole in the Wall" is turned into a LITERAL character--a HOLE on the WALL that you look through.  The ACTUAL MEANING of the phrase is not applied--just as the ACTUAL MEANING of the term "babies' tears" or "iceberg lettuce" is also not applied.  The WORDS in the phrase are interpreted LITERALLY into a character.  It's not a double standard--you just aren't grasping the concept of what I was saying.  :)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 07:20:45 PM by Lambonius »

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2010, 07:22:08 PM »
So then what's your complaint with our use of the term "Mag-Gnat?"  As far as I'm aware, it has no literal or figurative definition?
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2010, 07:27:30 PM »
So then what's your complaint with our use of the term "Mag-Gnat?"  As far as I'm aware, it has no literal or figurative definition?

I don't really have a complaint.  :)  I'm just making the point that it doesn't fit the scheme of the other characters in the garden, since Mag-Gnat is not a real term or figure of speech.  ;)  If the character had had wings and fluttered along like an insect, it would be closer to the other figures, since at least then it would incorporate characteristics of both magnets and gnats, but it still wouldn't exactly fit the schema, for the sole reason that Mag-Gnat is a made-up term, unlike the others, which do exist in real language.

The character itself was cute--I had no problem with it.  The gold-not-being-magnetic thing raised an eyebrow for a second or two, but not enough to really take me out of the game--I was just defending shadyparadox, since I do agree with the principle of his argument, even if it didn't bother me as much.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 07:29:47 PM by Lambonius »

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2010, 07:31:58 PM »
Hehe, you've never read Piers Anthony's Xanth series, have you?

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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2010, 07:45:02 PM »
Hehe, you've never read Piers Anthony's Xanth series, have you?

Ah...nope.  :)  Am I missing out on something?

Offline Damar

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2010, 07:47:30 PM »
Yeah, I noticed the fact that gold isn't magnetic but it didn't bother me even for a minute.  And like it was mentioned earlier in the thread, we actually saw the mag-gnat try to steal the gold.  If we hadn't seen that, then maybe I would have had trouble using something that's nonmagnetic on something that looks like a magnet and it would have been an issue.  But we did, so I didn't, so it wasn't.

Honestly, it reminded me of when I watched the X-Men movies.  They were entertaining movies and all but in the back of my head I knew a guy named Magneto was manipulating non-magnetic metals (like the copper Statue of Liberty).  And I know there's some in-universe explanation for that (and I really, desperately, don't care what it is) but whatever the explanation is, the character is still named Magneto and he's manipulating non-magnetic metals.  The movies were still entertaining and I didn't care.

So yeah, mag-gnat didn't bother me.  And I felt that the attempt at a pun (even if the scientific rules of magnetic fields aren't adhered to 100%) did in fact fit the Isle of Wonder.  In fact, if I was to nitpick the character at all, it wouldn't be the magnetic aspect, it would be the fact that the gnat part didn't come out.  He should have had some wings!  For the record though, that didn't bother me either.

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2010, 07:54:09 PM »
To be honest, this is actually one of those things that we did discuss prior to release - we know that gold isn't normally magnetic but nothing on the Isle of Wonder behaves "normally."  If he were only attracted to normally magnetic metals then he would just be a walking magnet, nothing much to "Wonder" at there.  We really did set this one up this way deliberately.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2010, 08:01:30 PM »
To be honest, this is actually one of those things that we did discuss prior to release - we know that gold isn't normally magnetic but nothing on the Isle of Wonder behaves "normally."  If he were only attracted to normally magnetic metals then he would just be a walking magnet, nothing much to "Wonder" at there.  We really did set this one up this way deliberately.

It's not a big deal.  I think if the game had made light of this through some little line or something, the whole thing would have gone over as the joke it was intended to be rather than causing people to wonder if it was a mistake.  The ambiguity as to whether or not it was intentional was the only thing that caused me to stop and think about it, really.  But yeah, I personally got a kick out of the scene overall.  :)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 08:03:47 PM by Lambonius »

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2010, 08:04:16 PM »
And it's just funny to me that anybody would stop and wonder about the logistics of anything on the Isle of Wonder.  We really didn't expect complaints about this one, but we're learning I suppose.
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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2010, 08:06:02 PM »
For the record, I'm not really trying to complain about it--I'm just saying I understand why it seemed strange to some people.  ;)

Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2010, 08:19:57 PM »
In the death traps thread, I did say that I enjoyed the puzzle other than that trap. So really, the magnetizing gold thing itself isn't what was bothering me. What is bothering me is this prevailing idea that the Isle of Wonder is simply the Land of Nonsense, when there is something much more profound going on. It's a shame that so many people seem to not only fail to recognize it, but vehemently deny it when it's brought to their attention.

And since Cez wants me to say something positive about TSL... I did appreciate the clue provided when clicking the hand on the Mag-Gnat, which was the only reason I thought to use the bag since gold can't actually be magnetized. The clue wasn't just helpful, but it was funny too. Clicked the hand on the Mag-Gnat several times just to get a giggle.

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2010, 08:31:17 PM »
What is bothering me is this prevailing idea that the Isle of Wonder is simply the Land of Nonsense, when there is something much more profound going on. It's a shame that so many people seem to not only fail to recognize it, but vehemently deny it when it's brought to their attention.

I agree.  The way the Isle of Wonder is designed is really just ingenious, and a testament to Jane and Roberta's amazing creative minds.  The fact that it so specifically adheres to figure-of-speech and grammar-based jokes and characters is totally awesome--something that I came to appreciate more and more the older I got (and the more of an English nerd I became.)  You're right, too--it's not just a land of nonsense.  There is a very specific (and subtle, apparently  ;)) underlying order to all of the characters and objects found there.  Simply put, the Isle of Wonder makes sense--a very specific kind of sense.  It's kind of like a grammatical version of Alice and Wonderland--without Alice or all of the dark undertones of Wonderland.

And since Cez wants me to say something positive about TSL... I did appreciate the clue provided when clicking the hand on the Mag-Gnat, which was the only reason I thought to use the bag since gold can't actually be magnetized. The clue wasn't just helpful, but it was funny too. Clicked the hand on the Mag-Gnat several times just to get a giggle.

I'll have to go back and do this--I'm sure I did it in my initial playthrough, but I can't remember the gag.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 10:20:29 PM by Lambonius »

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2010, 08:53:20 PM »
No, I agree that Isle of Wonder is carefully constructed but I don't think Mag-Gnat goes against that. Mag-Gnat is more along the lines of Hole-in-the-Wall -- which is not a pun or a personification. Perhaps the name of Mag-Gnat is a little off from what they were trying to do... but I think calling it "Magnet" would just have been too obvious. :P
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Offline KatieHal

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2010, 08:54:11 PM »
The Xanth series is FULL of puns. Like, built on them. I'm pretty sure that a mag-gnat even shows up in there at some point.

In any case, then it's another case of opinion here--personally, I don't think the mag-gnat "breaks" the pun-ridden "rules" of the Isle of Wonder. And obviously, I'm far from the only one on the team (or among the fans, even) who thinks that. Please, don't bring up arguments to say I'm wrong--I'm not interested in hearing for a third, fifth, or even eightieth time.

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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2010, 09:00:14 PM »
Well actually, none of the characters on the Isle of Wonder are "puns" at all--I misspoke when I initially used that word--they are figures of speech (a different thing entirely) that are taken literally and transformed into characters based on that literal interpretation.  ;)  So that's really the crucial difference.

Like I said though--I thought the Mag-Gnat was a cute idea and enough in keeping with the general whimsical spirit of the place, even if it doesn't conform to its rules as defined by Roberta and Jane.

Offline shadyparadox

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2010, 09:11:13 PM »
Well actually, none of the characters on the Isle of Wonder are "puns" at all--I misspoke when I initially used that word--they are figures of speech (a different thing entirely) that are taken literally and transformed into characters based on that literal interpretation.  ;)  So that's really the crucial difference.

But she just told you she didn't want to hear any counterarguments! ;)

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2010, 09:20:29 PM »
Well actually, none of the characters on the Isle of Wonder are "puns" at all--I misspoke when I initially used that word--they are figures of speech (a different thing entirely) that are taken literally and transformed into characters based on that literal interpretation.  ;)  So that's really the crucial difference.

But she just told you she didn't want to hear any counterarguments! ;)

Oops!  I started responding before Katie's comment got posted.  ;)  Sorry!

Offline waltzdancing

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Re: Gold...or is it?
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2010, 09:28:38 PM »
*Puts hand on Lamb's head* You are forgiven  :yes:
 

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