Gold...or is it?

[KatieHal]

Yes... please do not turn into debating the size of Mag-Gnat, because that would be even more ridiculous than this thread already is.

[koko_99_2001]

But isn't this thread supposed to be ridiculous? I mean, we're talking about the Isle of Wonder

[Baggins]

It's not the size that matters, its uh how you use it?

[Lambonius]

Actually not all puns are "phonetic". Phonetic puns just make up one type of pun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pun

But of you are right that "iceberg lettuce" is not a phonetic pun. It might have more in common with homegraphic pun. More of a sight pun than than sound.

A man goes to the Doctor with a piece of lettuce hanging out of his ear.
"That looks nasty," says the doctor.
"Nasty?!?" replies the man, "this is just the tip of the iceberg."

Ah.  You're right.  I take it back.    And for the record, I think we should start exclusively using the term paronomasia to refer to puns from now on.    Mag-Gnat would be a different type of paronomasia--the phonetic kind--rather than the more general double-meaning type figures that otherwise populate the garden in KQ6.  The lack of gnat features, as mentioned, makes the paronomasia joke make a little less sense, definitely.  I still like the little guy though.  

(Posted on: October 12, 2010, 04:28:18 PM)

It's not the size that matters, its uh how you use it?

Ah...how quickly a pedantic discussion about grammar turns into sexual innuendo.  hehehe

[Cez]

Since this is something that won't be fixed, it's already out, and people haven't been stuck because it's illogical to use gold on a magnet --which shows you people like to think outside the box, and that's what adventure games are about--, this discussion is rather pointless, don't you all think?

To be fair, people haven't been stuck because we all saw the Magnat trying to get Graham's gold. Without that animation, many people probably would have been stuck, but as it's been implemented it's not an issue.

For the record, I'm fine with illogical puzzles. But if there are other such puzzles in future episodes, I believe more such short animations will have to be included in order not to attract a great deal of negative attention from frustrated gamers.  

EDIT: And yes, I also thought it was a cute character. I didn't make this thread with the intention of attacking POS.

Probably, but it's there. And the reason why it's there is because we knew it was "illogical", and rather than coming up with with a bag of metal coins inventory item, or bag of scraps or whatever, we ESTABLISHED that in the Isle of Wonder this guy, when you pass by him, he likes to take your gold. That is something we have established and within the illogical world of the Isle of Wonders, we've made it a fact.

We establish that fact VERY WELL, because if you haven't used hand on the guy, or haven't figured it out by the 4th time you get into that screen, the animation will play.

So we can say two things: 1) Magnets do not attract gold in REAL LIFE. This is a fantasy game people, get over it.
2) In our fantasy game, in our story cemented in Roberta's universe where cabbage's cry, lettuce is cold, and grain of sands may tell you to put them back, we have a magnet that has eyes and feet and walks around, LOVES gold, and he's particularly developed, over the years, the ability to grab onto it just like he can do with metal.

If you call that a stretch and illogical, then cool. That's your way of seeing it. But we are the ones telling this particular story. And in our story this personification of a Magnet attracts gold . And that's the simple way we can put it.

Whether this fact is logical or not, that is completely irreverent. We could have made it attract pearls or plastic, and as long as it's an established fact within the world, then it is fair and real to the world you are playing. If you want to bring preconceptions of your life into this game, you shouldn't be saying that it's illogical to have a magnet attract gold --you should be saying that a magnet walking around is illogical

[Lambonius]

...That is a fact we have established and within the illogical world of the Isle of Wonders, we've made it a fact...

...2) In our fantasy game, in our story cemented in Roberta's universe where cabbage's cry, lettuce is cold...

...Whether this fact is logical or not, that is completely irreverent. We could have made it attract pearls or plastic, and as long as it's an established fact within the world, then everything is possible.

The difference though, is that in Roberta's universe, cabbages cry for a reason, because they're babies' tears, and lettuce is cold for a reason, because it's iceberg lettuce.  In Roberta's world, the Isle of Wonder is logical, in its own specific way.  It was never meant to be the land of arbitrary nonsense. 

[Cez]

But if your theory holds, then the gnomes shouldn't have developed the senses in the way they did. Because there's nothing about the name "Gnome" that implies that they should have magnified senses.

So tell me... in terms of what fits the Isle of Wonders, what's the difference exactly between having five "Gnomes" that developed abnormal extra sensory abilities, and a "Mag-Gnat" that developed the abnormal ability to attract gold?

[drunkenmonkey]

Now if Graham needs another Golden Quest Item all he needs is to catch Mag-Gnat again. Hmm I wonder if it works as a compass for finding gold. 

[Lambonius]

But if your theory holds, then the gnomes shouldn't have developed the senses in the way they did. Because there's nothing about the name "Gnome" that implies that they should have magnified senses.

So tell me... in terms of what fits the Isle of Wonders, what's the difference exactly between having five "Gnomes" that developed abnormal extra sensory abilities, and a "Mag-Gnat" that developed the abnormal ability to attract gold?

I'm pretty sure we already went over the gnomes earlier.    But I'll explain it again for anyone else who was having trouble keeping up.

The gnomes fit the scheme, because like the Chess pieces, they are personifications of objects and/or concepts--in this case the 5 senses.  Each gnome embodies a different sense in a very physical way--i.e. huge hands for touch, huge eyes for sight, huge ears for hearing, etc.  

That's a different part of the scheme though, and fairly unrelated to the concept of dual meaning puns/figures of speech.  

The design scheme for Isle of Wonder logic/characters as it was defined in King's Quest 6 was that every character was either 1) a figure of speech or double-meaning pun/wordplay taken literally and given physical form, or 2) an object/concept personified--i.e. personified Chess pieces that walk and talk and are competitive, gnomes that physically embody the 5 senses, a black widow who embodies lust and the concept of the femme fatale (as well as being literally personified as a widow--she's kind of a mix of both types, actually.)

It's pretty simple, really. 

[Cez]

You haven't answered my question. If you wanted to personify senses, you could have added hands and feet to a nose and an eye. These are GNOMES, and they have extra sensory abilities, something they SHOULDN'T have in the way it's depicted. Just the same way a Magnet SHOULDN'T have the ability to attract gold.

So, I insist, you haven't answered my question.

[Baggins]

http://cabbage's cry

Heh, real baby's tears aren't even cabbage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soleirolia_soleirolii

BTW, they aren't even cabbage in KQ6 (though there is a vague resemblence to cabbage patch kids), they are actually a baby's head flowery thing attached to a vine-like plant.

Here is the Guidebook's description for the Isle of Wonder;

PART III The Isle of Wonder
Imagine a place where the very path beneath your feet might complain of your weight, and the trees purposely drop twigs on your head for the sheer merriment of it all, and you`ll have an idea of what it's like to be on the Isle of Wonder. The Isle of Wonder is a comma shaped body of land that might as well resemble a question mark, for confusion and astonishment are sure to be a lot of the unknowing visitor. The island is teeming with life. Vegetation is abundant as are the island's inhabitants. In fact, the two are frequently the one and the same. One can scarcely pick up a grain of sand on that shore without it demanding to be put back... and this instant, if you please. The history of this unusual island is an issue of fervent speculation. That it was an uninteresting deserted island until a wizard enchanted the whole place, bringing everything in it to life, and presented it to his daughter as a birthday present. Others say that the island was once a prison of a beautiful princess, held captive there by a powerful and jealous queen. The maiden was so fair that the very trees and stones themselves could not bear to hear her crying, and came to life to provide her companionship. Still another group claims that the Creator of the Universe simply got tired of serious business of life giving and decided to indulge his or her sense of humour. Whatever the origin, a more delightful spot could scarcely be imagined. But be warned those travellers who like to know, exactly what to expect from life would be well advised to go elsewhere. Whilst most of the islands inhabitants are friendly. some of the thornier natives are capable of being downright rude!, and all are quirky. Visitors are frequent on the Isle of Wonder for it offers a refreshing respite from the ho-hum of everyday life. Even the King and Queen enjoy a picnic or a stroll in the gardens, and they are on occasion to be found relaxing and passing the time of day with the island's natives.

The rulers of the Isle of Wonder are a pair of queens, rivals in every way, and most frequently to be found arguing over everything from the color of the sky to the consistency of potato hash. Despite their eccentricities, the Isle of Wonder, seems to run smoothly and be a flourishing part of the kingdom, providing many exports and lending the kingdom a lightheartedness to counter the more serious countrymen on the Isle of the Sacred Mountain.

[shadyparadox]

No one has a problem with the Mag-Gnat. It's just been noted that it does not conform to the general theme displayed on the Isle of Wonder.

It's OK that it's different. Sierra took all the good ones already, including the ones not relevant to the puzzles such as sour grapes and cattails. So inventing a new creature that fits the scheme AND creates a good puzzle is a tall task indeed. So the Mag-Gnat misses, but just barely, and is probably about as good as one can do.

The Mag-Gnat is not even at the heart of the discussion. What we're discussing is whether the Isle of Wonder is simply a place where anything illogical flies or if there is something much more profound going on. As some of us have observed, the Isle of Wonder characters are based on literal interpretations of common idioms and phrases. So generally speaking, putting something in the game simply because it's "illogical" is not sufficient justification.

But again this isn't really about the Mag-Gnat. I'm just disappointed the designers are not acknowledging the running theme in the Isle of Wonder and its brilliant implementation.

[Lambonius]

Since you guys seem to be having so much trouble coming up with viable arguments to refute my points, I'll help you out.  

The best argument you could give for the Mag-Gnat's place on the Isle of Wonder would be the existence of anachronisms such as the Singing Stone.  A stone that sings is certainly neither pun nor figure of speech (although it is a mythological object with roots in both Norse and Greek mythology.)  It does technically fit the idea of a personified inanimate object, but unlike the Chess pieces, it doesn't also embody a concept (like competition.)  The Singing Stone truly is a seemingly purposeless anachronism in a world that otherwise makes sense according to a very specific kind of logic.  The Mag-Gnat would be most similar to the Singing Stone, because a gold-attracting magnet (or a gold-attracting gnat, for that matter) is also anachronistic.  So if we include basic personified anachronisms in the scheme, the Mag-Gnat could fit (though the gnat part still makes no sense.  )

Happy now?  

(Posted on: October 12, 2010, 06:26:21 PM)

You haven't answered my question. If you wanted to personify senses, you could have added hands and feet to a nose and an eye. These are GNOMES, and they have extra sensory abilities, something they SHOULDN'T have in the way it's depicted. Just the same way a Magnet SHOULDN'T have the ability to attract gold.

So, I insist, you haven't answered my question.

That would be one way to do it, or you could take a fairly generic fantasy character and add the exaggerated elements of single senses to each one, which is the route that Roberta and Jane clearly took.    They're still working within the conventions of fairy tale settings and characters, so certain consistencies (like gnomes) crop up in pretty much every King's Quest game.

[shadyparadox]

You haven't answered my question. If you wanted to personify senses, you could have added hands and feet to a nose and an eye. These are GNOMES, and they have extra sensory abilities, something they SHOULDN'T have in the way it's depicted. Just the same way a Magnet SHOULDN'T have the ability to attract gold.

So, I insist, you haven't answered my question.

Each of the gnomes has a strong sense that is intensified, but not altered.

Huge Eyes has excellent vision, but he CANNOT visually detect objects that cannot be seen (such as invisible ink).
The Mag-Gnat is a strong magnet, and he CAN attract objects that cannot be magnetized (such as gold).
That is the difference.

[Lambonius]

The Mag-Gnat is not even at the heart of the discussion. What we're discussing is whether the Isle of Wonder is simply a place where anything illogical flies or if there is something much more profound going on...I'm just disappointed the designers are not acknowledging the running theme in the Isle of Wonder and its brilliant implementation.

Yeah, I agree with this.  The beauty of the logic behind the Isle of Wonder isn't getting recognized at all here.  It's surprising that anyone who was willing to devote so much time to a project based on a specific King's Quest game would be so dismissive of the genius behind the design of that initial game.  

[Cez]

I actually don't have a problem refuting your points. I agree that the Gnomes are the personification of the senses, yet they are the wild card in the whole thing because they are creatures that represent a concept they don't have anything to do with.

In the case of Chess Pieces, yes, they encompass being competitive and that's a very good way to see it, but the Gnomes have absolutely nothing to do with amplified senses. To give them amplified senses would be the same than giving Peter Parker the ability to create spider webs. Which hints at the idea that, in the same way creatures have been given the ability to talk and walk, some creatures have been given extra abilities beyond what is considered normal.

So the Gnomes, again, the concept of amplified senses has nothing to do with them, other than they having senses already, and therefore, magnified. So, in that same way, it's not a crazy idea to do the same with a magnet's properties by taking the basic idea of what it is, and enhancing it to be more than that.

[Lambonius]

So the Gnomes, again, the concept of amplified senses has nothing to do with them, other than they having senses already, and therefore, magnified. So, in that same way, it's not a crazy idea to do the same with a magnet's properties by taking the basic idea of what it is, and enhancing it to be more than that.

I can accept this explanation.    But it still doesn't explain the gnat part.  hehe.

(Posted on: October 12, 2010, 06:40:22 PM)

Each of the gnomes has a strong sense that is intensified, but not altered.

Huge Eyes has excellent vision, but he CANNOT visually detect objects that cannot be seen (such as invisible ink).
The Mag-Gnat is a strong magnet, and he CAN attract objects that cannot be magnetized (such as gold).
That is the difference.

On the other hand, this is also a very good point. 

[Cez]

The Gnat part actually doesn't have anything to do with the insect. I just thought it was a cute name. To be completely honest, I didn't know the english word for that at the time I wrote the character

[Cez]

You haven't answered my question. If you wanted to personify senses, you could have added hands and feet to a nose and an eye. These are GNOMES, and they have extra sensory abilities, something they SHOULDN'T have in the way it's depicted. Just the same way a Magnet SHOULDN'T have the ability to attract gold.

So, I insist, you haven't answered my question.

Each of the gnomes has a strong sense that is intensified, but not altered.

Huge Eyes has excellent vision, but he CANNOT visually detect objects that cannot be seen (such as invisible ink).
The Mag-Gnat is a strong magnet, and he CAN attract objects that cannot be magnetized (such as gold).
That is the difference.

Now that is getting to the bottom side of nitpicking, but, ok.

The concept of intensified abilities is really not explored in the Isles of Wonders. What it does is that it throws a completely random thing to the logical " illogical" world established, as you guys have defended.

So, instead of having, say, imagine we had a drink in this world called "Icy U" (lame I know, but just take it for the purpose of this explanation) --and having a literal froze U with a big eye, to keep within the concept of what's mostly there, they broke the rules, and had a Gnome with big eyes. Which really means that there is more to the concept of the Isle of Wonders that what you have implied. And really, since the text about it says it itself " people used to conventional life should go elsewhere" there's nothing that implies that the impossible couldn't happen in any way, shape or form.

Now, if you consider that the concept of altered properties is not part of the Isle of Wonders, well, yes, it is. It may be only in relation of direct puns, but the concept is there. The real Iceberg lettuce is a green and probably warm thing. The version in the isle of wonders altered its elements and made it a cold freezing piece of blue.

So you can consider Magnat's ability a combination of both. Magnified and altered both at the same time.

[kindofdoon]

I'll give you the Gnat part of it--I think he used to have wings but he doesn't now, and he does have the 'bug eyes' sort of, but yeah, he doesn't look terribly gnat-like despite his name.

I thought "gnat" was figurative, as in "an annoyance" (ie. Mag-Gnat = a magnetic annoyance).