Nintendo 3DS

[wilco64256]

Don't forget, the Wii didn't have any major launch titles either, and it went on to become the best selling system this generation (despite the embarrassing lack of good games for it.)  And before you guys say anything--Twilight Princess does not count since it was not Wii exclusive.  It was the exact same friggin' game as the Gamecube version.  Lamest "launch title" ever.

Except the Gamecube version didn't come out until an entire month AFTER the Wii version, which did launch with the Wii. That really ticked me off. I didn't have a Wii yet and I was dying to play it at the time. I guess they really wanted people to try out the Wii and used Twilight Princess as bait.

Oh they totally used it as bait, and VERY successfully at that.  Wii's were tough to get ahold of for a long time.

[Baggins]

Ya, Wii's were like gold. I didn't get one until about a year and a half ago. Even then I had the darndest time finding one. Bah, I was angry when it was stolen... I didn't have trouble finding a new one at that point, but still losing all my save games/virtual console stuff was the suck.

[Lambonius]

Then if we used your standards, we shouldn't be counting OOT 3D either (even though its released a couple months after 3DS), since its not a N3D exclusive, and has been ported over to several systems (this would mean even fewer original 3DS games in the first year).

Twilight Princess wasn't a launch title, IIRC, but came one month later (due to a delay, but maybe that was for the GC version?). I know one came out a month or two before the other.

Actually, Twilight Princess on GC and Wii are different games. They are mirrors of each other, the maps are literally mirrored. So its almost like playing a "master quest" remix.

I don't think that's really a good comparison.  OoT 3D is an actual remake of the original game, with revamped graphics and tons of extras, whereas Twilight Princess was a simple port.  Sure, they mirrored the whole game, but that didn't really change item locations or enemies or puzzles or anything like that.  The controls COULD have made a significant difference, but they clearly didn't design the game from the ground up with the Wii in mind, so all the Wiimote bits felt really shoehorned into the experience.

I had forgotten about that delay, MI.  You're right, that WAS annoying.  lol  

**Oh, also--didn't the original DS have Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow as a launch title?  That game was awesome!    Can't remember if it came out later than launch or not, but I know it was one of the first REALLY good titles for the system.

[Baggins]

don't think that's really a good comparison.  OoT 3D is an actual remake of the original game, with revamped graphics and tons of extras, whereas Twilight Princess was a simple port.  Sure, they mirrored the whole game, but that didn't really change item locations or enemies or puzzles or anything like that.  The controls COULD have made a significant difference, but they clearly didn't design the game from the ground up with the Wii in mind, so all the Wiimote bits felt really shoehorned into the experience.

I don't know about that, the hands on previews have been pretty bleak. Saying that it seems dated, and "not enough changes" have been made;

Sere here for example.

Although Nintendo has updated the visuals of the N64 classic, it hasn't changed enough to shake off the N64 origins -- and the new sheen of paint can't help it compete with the other games that were present at the 3DS preview event, like Resident Evil. The 3D effect also seems relatively muted, even with the toggle set to the maximum settings. Its shortcomings make me realize that I wouldn't mind seeing a more thorough remake, one that truly pushes the 3DS' graphical capabilities.

If you're looking for extras, it doesn't seem like Nintendo is bothering to add any with this port. So far, there's been no mention of any additional temples or content, other than the ability to use the motion sensor when you're in first-person mode. Is it cool? Yeah. But is it a practical feature? Not really. Nintendo has crafted a terrific analog stick for the 3DS, and I intend on using it.

It's perhaps you have fallen for the hype trap, wishful thinking, and Nintendo talking points? In anycase, we'll just have to wait and see, what's in the finalized product. But as it is, its sounding more like the SM64 re-release from the DS launch, and imo while it improved the game, simply didn't improve it enough.

**Oh, also--didn't the original DS have Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow as a launch title?  That game was awesome!    Can't remember if it came out later than launch or not, but I know it was one of the first REALLY good titles for the system.

Nah, Dawn of Sorrow came out like five-six months later. Had it come out launch I would have bought it then . That actually was one of the games I bought the DS for.

Edit: Scratch that just checked to make sure, it came out almost a year later at least in America, October 2005. The system was released in NA around November 2004.

As I recall one of the first DS games I bought was Lunar: Dragon Song, and that came out in September 2005. I can't remember which games I might have gotten before that if I did.

But like I said, the system was for me a GBA replacement, for a long time (I think I was using it for the GBA, Final Fantasy games that year).

In freaking comparison, the wait for the good 3DS games is nothing (2-3 months at hte most).

Seriously for a while there, I was angry at Nintendo, and angry that I had bought the system on release... I was starting to think I had wasted my money. The game desert was bleak.

[wilco64256]

I'll probably wait until I actually get to play OoT 3D to make up my mind on that one - I can't imagine any of the people who have reviewed it actually got to play it long enough to get fully accustomed to the 3DS control scheme or to play through the entire game.  Mainly I supposed I'm just looking forward to playing it on a portable system in general, and I wonder whether the extra empty bottles tricks will still work on the 3DS.

[Baggins]

Ya, its definitely one of those wait and see, to make final judgement issues.

Right now, lots of the previewers have been complaining that the models haven't really been upgraded much over the original (although have better textures), has limited 3-d (menu text floats above the screen), and doesn't appear to have as many extras as rumored. They are saying that it's some of the 3rd party stuff is really showing what the system is capable of.

[dark-daventry]

I'm hoping PAX East in Boston will have a playable demo unit of the 3DS with OoT 3D. I'm probably going to wait in line for like six hours just to play it. But you know what? It'll be totally worth it! Granted, that's if Nintendo is even going to be at PAX East. I hope they are. Or else The Regginator will be hearing from me.

[Baggins]

Here is more info;

Nintendo's Bill Trinen (the same guy that played the first 30 seconds of Skyward Sword at E3) commented on the possibility of new dungeons in Ocarina of Time 3D:

"I wouldn't anticipate any extra dungeons."



Also, he discuss about the improvments:

"One of his long regrets was not necessarily the layout, or the puzzles or the difficulty of the water temple but the fact that [pause] the water temple involved putting on the iron boots on and off, taking them on, taking them off, taking them on, taking them off, to move up and down in the water. To do that you had to press the start button , you'd have to switch over to your inventory screen, you'd have to scroll around to get down to your iron boots and then, of course, in between, you're switching out the iron boots with the hookshot and things like this.... He (Aonuma) feels he's finally able to provide the experience the way it should have been in the water temple and that' s with, on the touch panel, you have access to your inventory, so instead of having to scroll down, to find all the different items you're going to have very simple and intuitive access to all the items and the equipment you're going to need. Basically, with the new interface it means that instead of spending a good deal of time pushing around through your inventory, you're able to focus on being Link, being in the adventure, solving puzzles and so on."

So its actually looking more to be mainly interface modifications, something akin to the Wii remote vs. GC controller on Twilight Princess. The new OOT will use the 3DS motion controls for example.

On a related note, I understand that the Oot port on gamecube, had a slight resoluton upgrade over the original N64 release. This one appears to be getting the texture treatment.

[Lambonius]

Many of the models are higher polygon count as well.  Actually, I'd say the apparent lack of difference between the graphics is more a testament to the fantastic art direction of the N64 original than to any perceived shortcomings of the port.  The screenshots I've seen have looked noticeably different.

[Baggins]

Yes, there are some model upgrades (like some of the 2-d sprites have been replaced with 3-d models like the deku nuts that fall from enemies/bushes/etc). Of course as mentioned they have replaced most of the textures as well, there is apparently some improved animations on some enemies/characters. These are cosmetic changes though, not indiciation of something 'new', like new additions to the story, etc, but just indicates an 'upgraded' port.

I understand twilight on the GC, had some lower resolution graphics compared to the Wii version, but the Wii's improvements are all largely cosmetic as well.

It's going to be fun, but I don't think it can be counted as end all, be all, second coming of OOT.

It'll be great to have the game portable though.

If it doesn't have at least one extra dungeon, like the GB color added to Link's Awakening, or was added into the GBA LttP then its seems its more of a platform ot showcase a 'gimmick' (the 3-d), and relying purely on gimmicks can be a bad thing (see complaints made towards Wii).

Even if they were to toss in the master quest, as a bonus, after completing the game, would go a long ways, to make the port better, 'extend it', and add to the replayability.

However, most sources are reporting they have been told that all item locations, puzzles, characters, etc have remained the same.

[Lambonius]

The GC version of Twilight Princess is identical to the Wii version in every way, except for the mirroring and the motion controls (which are LESS precise on the Wii.)  The Wii's native resolution is the same as the GC, but you could up it to 480p with the component cable (that you of course have to buy extra.)  That said, you could also get component cables for the GC, which sharpened up the graphics of most GC games--I'm not sure if it was a true resolution upgrade or just a slight upscaling of the lower resolution on the GC though.

Compared to that, the cosmetic polygon count and texture improvements of OoT 3D are much more significant.  Even if the core game stays the same, at least that version of the game has something that can truly be called an improvement, as opposed to the straight port that was Twilight Princess Wii.    I never said it would be the be-all, end-all OoT version, but it should be a fresh new way to re-experience a timeless classic.

[Baggins]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHWoLggVQTA
Seems the intro for Twilight Princess was a bit different in each as well. Showing slightly different scenes at points, and different camera angles (not just mirroring). Part of that I think has to do with the Wii version having widescreen, and so the camera angles in the GC version, didn't look as good in those scenes (so they replaced them with ones that would show off the widescreen better).

Would seriously be interesting to do a side by side, and see what other differences exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFDqbIZ5jMA&feature=related

The mirrored world.

The 4:3 screen vs 16:9 (cosmetic, but affects the cutscenes in much the same way letterbox vs. widescreen affects movies (you see extra details on screen on widescreen)). GC lacks widescreen mode.

More differences is in the aiming. In GC, version aiming the bow is first person with the bow infront of you (this close up seems to have a noticeably lower polygon count than regular Link model's arms). In Wii version its 3rd person with the player hovering behind link (in RE4 style).

Wii has movement while aiming, GC doesn't. You have to stand in one place in GC version (that is something that can change the feel of the game). Also like to know if they tweaked the bosses, in the GC version, where literally need move while aiming in the Wii version. Otherwise it make those bosses a b**** to kill in cube version.

Different skills and items menus (and quickslots), hold 2 or 3 items on cube, 4 on the wii..

Wii apparently added the fishing game (or at least more interactive form of fishing).

Gamecube has free camera mode feature.

Apparently differences in the total number of save games?

Also I'm not sure if GC version has a standard 480p mode, and twilight princess for the GC surely didn't.

[Lambonius]

   Minor interface, display, and control differences are still much less significant than an actual graphical overhaul, which is what OoT is getting on the 3DS--in ADDITION to similar types of interface and control tweaks.  No matter how many pedantic details you want to list, it doesn't change the fact that graphical overhaul will trump minor control and display tweaks every time.  

And regardless of the number of minor changes between the Wii and GC Twilight Princesses, I still don't think any of those tweaks would make the Wii version into an actual improvement over the GC one.  The differences are just that--differences.  Both have been tweaked slightly to be more playable on their respective systems, but that's about it.  Twilight Princess was still a lousy launch title for the Wii, since a) it wasn't designed for the Wii until the very end of its development process, and b) you could play what was essentially the exact same game on the GC WITHOUT having to pay $200 bucks for a gimmicky new system. 

[Baggins]

I disagree (but this is a matter of personal preference), I never have been all for 'graphics' (that is to say, I don't make my decisions based on graphics). I'm more for "gameplay", and "story additions". Those change the feel of a game a lot more than graphics. Case in point, I've played Assassin's Creed on both DS and Iphone, and hte control differences completely change the feel of the game (even if Iphone has the "better improved graphics" between the two and includes speech), I prefer the DS controls though (and so the graphics are less important to me in my decision over which I think is more fun).

Seriously, if I thought a graphical overhaul was important, I would love to see some kind of interface to play the upgraded game, over the TV, if I wanted too (so I could utilize my big screen).

In some ways, I prefer the old parser interfaces over the icon based interfaces in later KQ games, as such the improved graphics in later games, is not something that affects my reasons for preferring the older games interfaces.

But I understand for some gamers, its "all about the graphics". I find it shallow reasoning, but oh well,  .

I can at least understand that some people prefer standard controller interface over wii control modes. That kinda stuff comes down to personal tastes I guess.

That being said, unless this new Zelda adds anything substantial that extends the game, like a new dungeon, I might just pass on it initially, and wait for the price of the game to drop. I can use my blockbuster account to rent it through the mail even.

[Lambonius]

I must not be making myself clear, here, because you've moved far away from what I was actually talking about.  

I'm not trying to make any kind of qualitative judgment about which is better--graphics or gameplay, blah blah blah.  I mean seriously, I'm part of a community of fans of 25 year old adventure games with archaic interfaces and graphics.  And I help to MAKE games in that same aesthetic.  I think the answer to which I prefer is pretty obvious.  Although, actually, I don't think a gamer should have to sacrifice one for the other, but that's another topic.  

I'm saying that if you put "straight port with slight display and control tweaks" next to "remake with overhauled textures, higher poly counts, new interface, new controls, 3D effects, etc." and ask someone, "which game has more significant changes from its original version?" the answer is pretty darn obvious.  

[wilco64256]

I must not be making myself clear, here, because you've moved far away from what I was actually talking about.  

I'm not trying to make any kind of qualitative judgment about which is better--graphics or gameplay, blah blah blah.  I mean seriously, I'm part of a community of fans of 25 year old adventure games with archaic interfaces and graphics.  And I help to MAKE games in that same aesthetic.  I think the answer to which I prefer is pretty obvious.  Although, actually, I don't think a gamer should have to sacrifice one for the other, but that's another topic.  

I'm saying that if you put "straight port with slight display and control tweaks" next to "remake with overhauled textures, higher poly counts, new interface, new controls, 3D effects, etc." and ask someone, "which game has more significant changes from its original version?" the answer is pretty darn obvious.  

I have to agree with this - the new interface alone is fascinating enough for me to chase this one down as soon as I get the chance.  I've always been more into the actual gameplay experience than graphics myself anyway, so the fact that there's not a major overhaul there isn't bothersome to me period.  In fact (I may get burned at the stake for this heresy) I actually like Majora's Mask better than OoT because I love the way the gameplay works with the whole repeating time thing.

[MusicallyInspired]

When I first got my Wii they were always sold out everywhere. I remember when they started becoming available stores in the malls would have signs up on the windows "Wii's in stock!" and then a couple days later (if that) it would disappear. I remember I got mine by getting my wife's co-worker's sister who was a manager at Toys 'R Us to reserve one for me in my name so I could go into town and pick it up as soon as they got their shipment. It was quite a thing when I first picked it up.

And now I barely use it except for homebrew lol.

[Lambonius]

I will never understand the Wii.  I was unimpressed with it when it was in development, unimpressed when the hype machine started churning, unimpressed when it launched and all the games were crap (or ports ), unimpressed the many times I played it, and I remain unimpressed, even after buying one for my wife (she loves the dancing games and Wii fit stuff.)  It just seems like a cheap, poorly made system, with a terrible library of games (minus a few gems.)  The motion controls never worked the way the hype machine said they would, and the games were terrible and childish (again, minus a few gems.)  Oh, and btw...don't you love how Nintendo totally ripped off Apple's aesthetic?   

I mean, the whole reason I buy consoles is because it's a relatively affordable way to let the latest gaming technology wow me for the next several years, and that includes the visual presentation as well as "gameplay"--a bulls*** term if I ever heard one--what does that even mean anyway?  I guess I just don't see the appeal of the Wii, especially when compared to a system like the 360 or even the PS3, with their massive libraries of high quality games with excellent graphics, sound, and...gasp!...gameplay.  

[dark-daventry]

Weldon, I'd be getting burned at the stake with you. Majora's Mask to this day remains one of my favorite Zelda games. Although, I feel I must be the only person who legitimately enjoyed Twilight Princess for the Wii. I admit, I've never played the gamecube version, but the wii version wasn't bad at all. My only gripe with it is the fact that Link became a righty because of the mirroring; I'm a lefty, so the wii-remote was a little hard to get used to at first, and seeing my left hand essentially control link's right hand was a little weird. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that's going to be changing much in Skyward Sword. If only they'd have a Lefty mode. I'm sure the lefties of the world would greatly appreciate it...

In any event, I'm very excited by OoT 3D. I hope Nintendo makes Majora's Mask for the 3DS. But that may be wishful thinking...

[Lambonius]

Wii games should always have Lefty modes.  Just like most games have various different control setups to suit different players' preferences.  With the Wii especially, since dexterity is so much more of a factor, it seems like it would be even more imperative to be able to set the game to be left or right-handed.  So yeah.

If you played TP on the Wii, you know pretty much exactly what it's like to play the GC version.  You just play it with a controller and it doesn't default to widescreen.    I'm not saying TP on Wii was BAD--it's a fantastic game.  But whether you played it on the Wii or not really had more to do with whether or not you felt like buying a Wii or were patient enough to wait for the GC version to come out.  There really wasn't any real incentive to get that Wii version, except that it came out a month sooner.  

Oh, and Majora's Mask was great.  I loved it--the fact that NPC's had specific schedules that changed with the days was awesome and added a great deal of depth to the game.  For me though, it never had the same enduring staying power as Ocarina of Time did.  I never felt compelled to go back to MM after beating it once, whereas I've played OoT numerous times over the years, and still go back to it every now and then.  I think I just didn't like the tone of MM's story as much.  And the music in Clock Town or whatever it's called right at the beginning of the game is possibly the WORST MUSIC IN ANY ZELDA GAME.  Oh my GOD is it ever annoying.  And it's made even moreso by the fact that you have to hear it OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again every time the 3 days reset.  Good lord.  I think that song alone makes me shudder and not want to replay the game.  hahaha