Author Topic: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts  (Read 54943 times)

Offline Numbers

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #100 on: November 23, 2011, 10:51:40 AM »
Eh, between this game and KQ6, I think we've seen enough of the Green Isles.  Bring on the Dreamworld!

I'm assuming that the strange castle behind the Ranger near the end of the episode was the city of Astratos that the Black Widow mentioned way back in episode two.  Whether or not it is Astratos, it looks pretty trippy--and visually more interesting than most of the actual environments from the official games.
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Offline Tinu

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #101 on: November 26, 2011, 09:18:05 AM »
Phew, finally done.

I've left my feedback on the fight and the box puzzle in the other thread so I won't recap it here.

The plot progression was great this time around. Would really appreciate if there was some way to replay just certain cutscenes like the story of Pandora like a memory option at the main title page that unlocks as the game progresses.

Having to travel to and fro the islands got really tedious as the game went on though. It would've been nice to be able to skip through some of it after the first time around, like the Winged One's city and the hedge maze.

I also found some of the puzzles to be a little unintuitive, like at one point I was just giving up and using every item in my inventory on random items/people.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Offline Lenny318

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #102 on: November 27, 2011, 02:07:52 AM »
I finally finished it and I must say it was wonderful and I can't wait for Episode 5 but I also agree that it may not be my favorite part so far, but it's actually close.  I loved the visuals, the music (I wanted to hang around Pan and not distract the Muses just to listen to the music), the voice acting, the plot, and everything overall.

So most of my issues probably just have to do with me, like solving certain puzzles on accident
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):
and not figuring out others.
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):
 I also made too many assumptions about where I could and couldn't go, as did my brother and dad when they played together
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

I did enjoy dying to actually figure out what had to be done
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

I also got a little frustrated with the amount of time it took to get from place to place but I think that's mostly due to the fact that it reminded me of how I didn't know what to do, if I had a plan or an idea, it didn't bother me as much.

Since there's already a thread about the puzzle and battle at the end I won't comment much about it, I'll just say that overall I liked them, even the glitch I encountered where the battle just kinda went on without me and I died... twice... in the same fight.  I found it humorous it was a nice break.  I also thought the progression of the music as the game went on was amazingly awesome!

The main thing I'm worried about is how much of the remaining plot/story is going to get attention in the final chapter.  I was kind of hoping the whole "prophesy" thing with regards to Alexander and Rosella would be explained a little more but it still focused on Graham and Valanice, which is cool but again, with one chapter remaining, I'm just wondering if that will be fully explained.  I'm still hoping Edgar breaks out some awesome in the final chapter.  Since I love that guy and have the audio of his conversation with Graham that was available on this site years ago, I did notice a few of his lines were cut, I don't have any major thoughts or issues with that, I just noticed it so I'll probably wonder why they were cut.  If Episode 5 is long in order to fit everything in, I won't complain at all  ;)

If I think of more I'll edit this and add it in...

You guys have done excellent work and I am loving these games! <3
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 11:52:44 AM by Lenny318 »
"Hi Rosella. The bad guys captured me as a kid and I couldn't figure out what was going on until you saved me a few years back. After all your efforts, I couldn't even stay out of trouble for one day and the bad guys got me all over again. My mind is easily warped, so I had no self-control when I turned you into an ugly troll. Then I almost blew up the world with this volcano..."

-Shadyparadox 's paraphrasing of Edgar's little speech at the end of KQVII  (youtube)

Offline DawsonJ

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #103 on: November 27, 2011, 10:50:29 AM »
I remember someone (Katie, I believe) saying that in this Episode, we would find out the source of the shears that fly in front of us in Episode 3. But, I didn't see any source for those, especially since no one had those - or even mentioned them - during the chess match. Did I miss something?

Edit:
Katie's comments on the shears are near the bottom:
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=10036.60
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 11:17:21 AM by DawsonJ »

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #104 on: November 27, 2011, 04:55:23 PM »
 The 'why' of it is that Pandora's Box was opened, and things are moving backwards/being undone. Hence Sing Sing's chicks are eggs, the Prince is a Beast again, the shears are being thrown again, etc.

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Offline DawsonJ

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #105 on: November 27, 2011, 05:46:33 PM »
The 'why' of it is that Pandora's Box was opened, and things are moving backwards/being undone. Hence Sing Sing's chicks are eggs, the Prince is a Beast again, the shears are being thrown again, etc.

I understand the reversing of time, but the celebration itself isn't happening at that time. So who threw the shears?

That seems comparable to going back in time, diverting the attention of JFK's shooter, just to have the gun shoot the president by itself.
No people around means the shears learned how to fly on their own.  ::)
Hence, my confusion.

Offline snabbott

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #106 on: November 28, 2011, 11:52:26 AM »
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

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Offline writerlove

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2011, 04:32:22 PM »
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):
"Love can't be banished, even from this place. ... still less can it be banished from my heart."
"ENOUGH! Burden me not with thy poetry."-KQ6

Offline fluxmaster

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #108 on: November 30, 2011, 06:15:17 PM »
Overall, a great episode.

The best part about opening Pandora's box and the fight scene was that they were both at the end, so that you could skip them without missing any of the adventure play.  I stopped playing when I got to the Pandora's box part and watched the rest on Let's Play Videos.  As episode 5 approaches, I may decide to play them, but, for the moment, I am finished playing this episode.

I know that many others have commented on the Pandora's Box sequence, but I want to weigh in on why I didn't like it.  The problem for me was not the game mechanism, but the fact that no understanding whatsoever of the symbols was required to complete the puzzle.  In fact, you're not manipulating the symbols at all, but merely assembling the four corners of each symbols to form a complete symbol.  The actual symbols used were totally irrelevant to anything.  You could have used letters of the alphabet, Egyptian hieroglyphics, or Chinese ideograms, and the puzzle would have been the same.  I think you were trying not to make the puzzle too hard but ended up making it extremely tedious and frustrating instead.

I realize that your intention was to invoke the frustration that Valanice must have been feeling trying to open the box.  That brings to mind an old flight simulator that Sierra put out in its early days.  In order to invoke in the user the feeling of danger and responsibility that the pilot must face, the program was designed such that, if the user crashed the plane, the program would crash the user's computer and mess up his hard drive.  Needless to say, it didn't go over too well.

By contrast, let me give you an example of what I consider to be an excellent puzzle involving symbols.  It occurs in the game King's Quest III Plus:  An Heir Raising Tale by Crystal Shard Games.  I'm not giving this example to plug the game, even though I was listed in the credits as a beta tester.  I'm doing so because I really like this puzzle.  In this game, in order to make the spells, you actually have to decode the symbols in the spell book, and in order to decode the symbols, you have to find two separate documents which function as a sort of Rosetta Stone.  I discuss this in this thread:

http://www.agdinteractive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15412

If you had used symbols that the user had to actually decode and understand, then you could have kept the same mechanism of the spinning circles, but had complete symbols on the spinning wheels instead of fragments, and the puzzle would have been interesting rather than merely tedious and frustrating.  The symbols could have represented, for example, numbers and directions such as left and right, and it could have been like opening a combination lock.

However, the fight scene that came later looked more interesting, so, as I've said, as episode 5 approaches, I may try to complete Pandora's box in order to get to the fight scene.
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Offline KatieHal

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #109 on: November 30, 2011, 08:00:06 PM »
The symbols are the zodiac symbols for specific reasons--some of which have been hinted at already, but you're right, it hasn't been spelled out thus far. That is something we perhaps could have done more of earlier on, to help with this puzzle.

Also, ooo, a KQ remake I haven't heard played before! Where might one download this from? :)

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Offline fluxmaster

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #110 on: November 30, 2011, 10:36:47 PM »
Also, ooo, a KQ remake I haven't heard played before! Where might one download this from? :)

The link was actually provided in my previous post (somewhat hidden), but here it is again:

http://www.crystalshard.net/index.php?p=8#

From The Vault, click on the link for Kings Quest III+ on the left, then click on the Download link on the right.

A couple of caveats:

  • You can only play the part in Llewdor and the encounter with the abominable snowman.  Most of the rest of the game is walkable, though.
  • You have to play from the beginning through to the encounter with Medusa all in one sitting; otherwise, the game will crash when you try to deal with Medusa or with the bandit in the treehouse.  After you have dealt with Medusa, you can save the game and finish it another day.

After you've played the part in Llewdor, check my thread above for how to see the ending of the game.
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Offline DawsonJ

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #111 on: November 30, 2011, 10:50:50 PM »
The symbols are the zodiac symbols for specific reasons--some of which have been hinted at already, but you're right, it hasn't been spelled out thus far. That is something we perhaps could have done more of earlier on, to help with this puzzle.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):
Right?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 12:19:36 AM by DawsonJ »

Offline tessspoon

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #112 on: November 30, 2011, 10:57:30 PM »
Also, ooo, a KQ remake I haven't heard played before! Where might one download this from? :)
I had some trouble getting to run at first, there was some talk about workarounds here.


A couple of caveats:

  • You can only play the part in Llewdor and the encounter with the abominable snowman.  Most of the rest of the game is walkable, though.
  • You have to play from the beginning through to the encounter with Medusa all in one sitting; otherwise, the game will crash when you try to deal with Medusa or with the bandit in the treehouse.  After you have dealt with Medusa, you can save the game and finish it another day.

After you've played the part in Llewdor, check my thread above for how to see the ending of the game.
Are you supposed to be able to defeat Manannan? From what I remember the walkthrough didn't go that far and I got stuck, not sure if I was even able to go on.

Offline snabbott

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2011, 08:16:48 AM »
The symbols are the zodiac symbols for specific reasons--some of which have been hinted at already, but you're right, it hasn't been spelled out thus far. That is something we perhaps could have done more of earlier on, to help with this puzzle.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):
Right?
Another interesting theory... :suffer:

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Offline KatieHal

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #114 on: December 01, 2011, 08:51:02 AM »
What snabbott said!  :suffer:

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Offline drusain

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #115 on: December 01, 2011, 09:41:33 AM »
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 09:45:52 AM by drusain »

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Offline Thaumaturge

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2011, 11:51:27 AM »
Hmm...  I do think that fluxmaster may have a point -his suggestion of basing the puzzle on selection from the wheels of specific symbols based on understanding of them, rather than building up symbols from parts, may well have strengthened the puzzle: it may have tied it into the story even more tightly, reduced frustration by reducing the number of selections called for per symbol and increased tension by allowing more frequent feedback (imagine, for example, Shadrack making threats or accusing Valanice of "throwing" the puzzle every few incorrect selections).

However, I do see the relevance of the symbols being zodiacal, I do believe.  So, how about this: through the game, the player is presented with little pieces of information regarding the Silver Cloaks, and in particular how they related to each other and to the symbols.  In the unlocking sequence, this information is repeated on the wall behind the puzzle, perhaps in a symbolic form calling for a little bit of interpretation, but primarily serving as a reminder for players who were paying attention and a repetition for those who weren't.  The puzzle then becomes a matter of determining the correct next symbol in order, finding it on the wheels, and finally selecting it, perhaps against some of the difficulty-inducing measures used in the game (the fading of the wheels, for example).  Difficulty levels might then affect the number of incorrect guesses that one is allowed before the puzzle resets, perhaps with some means of changing the order (perhaps by having that order be dependent on clues given on the box?), and/or the number of incorrect guesses or resets before Shadrack decides that you're trying to trick him and kills both Rosella and Valanice.

Offline Numbers

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #117 on: December 01, 2011, 12:20:09 PM »
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

This reminds me of a parody of Revenge of the Sith I saw a while ago.

Palpatine:  I think we can use this to our advantage...
Underling:  I--I'm afraid I don't see how, my Lord.
Palpatine:  Oh, it's just one of those things I say from time to time, you'll get used to it.
I have no mouth, and I must scream.

Offline fluxmaster

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #118 on: December 01, 2011, 09:48:57 PM »
Are you supposed to be able to defeat Manannan? From what I remember the walkthrough didn't go that far and I got stuck, not sure if I was even able to go on.

Not without cheating.  However, there is a "Stuff Pockets" function that lets you get every possible inventory item.  You can use it to get the tainted porridge and then give the porridge to Manannan.  But you must use it early in the game.  If you try to use it late in the game, Manannan will insist on eating fruit and refuse the porridge.  Also, there is a graphical glitch when Manannan turns into a cat.

But, yeah, if we knew the reason that Valanice had to assemble the zodiacal signs, then the puzzle would make more sense.
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Offline daventry

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Re: Episode 4: Feedback and Thoughts
« Reply #119 on: February 01, 2012, 01:23:02 AM »
When will Ep5 come out and will it Explain All, since Ep4 dident explain Anything and just added More Confusion.  ???

I have a sad feeling that Ep5 will be rushed with a quick ending so that the Developers can get on with Cognition, i mean the Whole Site is ready for it.  :-\