Author Topic: Journal Special  (Read 78506 times)

Offline awesomeasapossum

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Journal Special
« on: January 01, 2008, 07:35:04 AM »
Yonkey, I would just like to thank you for the very informative journal special. I think it shed a  lot of light on some of the work required for the "simpler" stuff you guys have had to do. I'm looking forward to next month's too!
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Offline Yonkey

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Re: Journal Special Entry #1
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2008, 08:47:15 AM »
Thanks A3P! ;D  I'm glad you like it. :)
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Offline Storm

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Re: Journal Special Entry #1
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2008, 05:16:51 PM »
I'm sorry to say that while the Journal Special itself is fairly decent (though it's all pretty much common-sense stuff, no 'professional secrets' revealed), I don't think the manner and timing in which it was introduced were the best of ideas.

The Journal Special's stated purpose is to deal with the pessimists and naysayers who come here to complain, but it might have quite the opposite effect: one major complaint those people often make is that most 'updates' aren't about the game's progress but about the forum & fan community (e.g. contests, fannatics etc.) As far as they're concerned this is just another update that tells them absolutely nothing. Another point they might make is that a guide which presumes to tell people how to make a game is better published by someone who, uh, actually made a game.

IMO, the best way of dealing with pessimists, flamers and nags who just drop by to say "it'll never be finished", is to let sleeping dogs lie. No need to wake them up and remind them you exist by sending newsletters that don't interest them - honestly, people outside this forum couldn't care less who won the beta testing contest. If you told them you're actually going beta and recruiting testers, that might interest them because it shows progress. If you told them 3 complete strangers are going to be beta testers in some unspecified time in the future, it will only serve to aggravate them.

In my experience in reading (and sometimes participating in) such debates in this forum, telling people how hard you're working on the game isn't going to persuade anyone who isn't persuaded already. What's worse, those who aren't persuaded usually see that as an attempt to excuse lack of progress. 
There's a reason why debates like that are impossible to win (no, not just the one in my sig), so there's no point bothering with anything more than giving the mundane response over and over.

Just my two cents.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 05:23:49 PM by Storm »
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Offline Yonkey

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Re: Journal Special Entry #1
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2008, 09:19:45 PM »
The Journal Special's stated purpose is to deal with the pessimists and naysayers who come here to complain, but it might have quite the opposite effect: one major complaint those people often make is that most 'updates' aren't about the game's progress but about the forum & fan community (e.g. contests, fannatics etc.) As far as they're concerned this is just another update that tells them absolutely nothing.
Well, the idea was to show how many intricate parts there are to developing this game.  It's one thing to say the plot is 2,000 pages long and x% complete, and another thing to show how and why the plot was developed the way it was.  The goal of this special isn't to give a progress report, it's to show how TSL is being developed. :)

Another point they might make is that a guide which presumes to tell people how to make a game is better published by someone who, uh, actually made a game.
The TSL Public Demo is a game published by us, and the majority of content described in the Journal Special is based on material from that game. 

IMO, the best way of dealing with pessimists, flamers and nags who just drop by to say "it'll never be finished", is to let sleeping dogs lie. No need to wake them up and remind them you exist by sending newsletters that don't interest them - honestly, people outside this forum couldn't care less who won the beta testing contest.
If the Newsletter doesn't interest them, they are free to unsubscribe from it at any time.  The purpose of sending out a Newsletter is to inform people about the latest TSL updates.  Yes, there may be people who aren't interested in all the updates, but there may also be people who become interested because of the updates.  For example, I've noticed a lot of recent guests checking out the thread with the screenshots, despite them being released 7-12 months ago. :P

If you told them you're actually going beta and recruiting testers, that might interest them because it shows progress. If you told them 3 complete strangers are going to be beta testers in some unspecified time in the future, it will only serve to aggravate them.
I believe I wrote: "There will be another Beta Testing contest held later this year open to everyone."  Also, the winners are hardly "complete strangers".  I mentioned they're TSL Fannatics... and people interested in knowing what a Fannatic is would click the link on the Home page that says "Fannatic" on it.  From there, they'd discover who these 3 are, if they were that jealous, of course. ;P

In my experience in reading (and sometimes participating in) such debates in this forum, telling people how hard you're working on the game isn't going to persuade anyone who isn't persuaded already. What's worse, those who aren't persuaded usually see that as an attempt to excuse lack of progress.
The special itself wasn't solely intended for the 4 or 5 people that whine about lack of progress.  It was more for the 3700+ people that would actually appreciate it. 

There are many people in this world that mock/insult things they simply don't understand.  This special gives them a unique opportunity to understand, and will hopefully make them at least think twice, before saying something completely ignorant. ;P

 
There's a reason why debates like that are impossible to win (no, not just the one in my sig), so there's no point bothering with anything more than giving the mundane response over and over.

Just my two cents.
Personally, I've gotten sick of saying the same things over and over, to the point where I can't even be bothered to read their rants anymore.  They provided me with the motivation to do the special, but they're not the reason why I'm doing it. 8)
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Offline Storm

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Re: Journal Special Entry #1
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2008, 03:59:11 PM »
Well, the idea was to show how many intricate parts there are to developing this game.  It's one thing to say the plot is 2,000 pages long and x% complete, and another thing to show how and why the plot was developed the way it was.  The goal of this special isn't to give a progress report, it's to show how TSL is being developed. :)

That's my point - you're not giving a progress report and you're not really saying anything new about the game, which is what most ranters are ranting about.


Another point they might make is that a guide which presumes to tell people how to make a game is better published by someone who, uh, actually made a game.
The TSL Public Demo is a game published by us, and the majority of content described in the Journal Special is based on material from that game.
 

It’s not me you have to convince here, I was just pointing out what some people might say ;)


If the Newsletter doesn't interest them, they are free to unsubscribe from it at any time.  The purpose of sending out a Newsletter is to inform people about the latest TSL updates.

Most non-forumers subscribe to the newsletter so they can get updates about the game, not about what’s going on in the website and the forum. Sure, they can unsubscribe, but then the newsletter will be defeating its own purpose, which is to keep people updated even if they don’t want to keep checking the TSL site & forum.


Yes, there may be people who aren't interested in all the updates, but there may also be people who become interested because of the updates.  For example, I've noticed a lot of recent guests checking out the thread with the screenshots, despite them being released 7-12 months ago. :P

That only goes to prove my point – people want to see if there are new screenshots released. Since there aren’t any, their next stop will be ranting on the feedback forum ;P


I believe I wrote: "There will be another Beta Testing contest held later this year open to everyone."


Ahh, but people want dates! Saying “there will be a public beta testing contest in the foreseeable future” isn’t really news worthy of a newsletter. It didn’t even get a headline. Saying “public beta testing contest opens today!” is something people are more likely to be interested in.


Also, the winners are hardly "complete strangers".  I mentioned they're TSL Fannatics... and people interested in knowing what a Fannatic is would click the link on the Home page that says "Fannatic" on it.  From there, they'd discover who these 3 are, if they were that jealous, of course. ;P

Of course they are no strangers to us ;) But you do have to consider that most people, and TSL bashers in particular, aren’t really interested in knowing who and what the fannatics are.


The special itself wasn't solely intended for the 4 or 5 people that whine about lack of progress.  It was more for the 3700+ people that would actually appreciate it. 

It might very well be that 3700+ people would enjoy the journal special, but your expressed purpose (stated in the journal) is to show those 4-5 whiners why it’s taking so long. My point is that your efforts will be lost on them.


Personally, I've gotten sick of saying the same things over and over, to the point where I can't even be bothered to read their rants anymore.  They provided me with the motivation to do the special, but they're not the reason why I'm doing it. 8)

Oh come on, it’s not that bad! Look at the bright side of it – if people bother coming here and rant (even if they are offensive and insulting), it means they still care. I’d hate to see the day people give up asking “when will it be done?” (or saying “It will NEVER get done! I feel it in my bones”) :P
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Offline Yonkey

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Re: Journal Special Entry #1
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2008, 09:15:22 PM »
That's my point - you're not giving a progress report and you're not really saying anything new about the game, which is what most ranters are ranting about.
You're forgetting that even if it was a progress report and said something new about the game, ranters would still rant because the game is not out.  As I said before, the purpose of the special wasn't to please whiners.  If it does, then that's great, but the special is intended for people that would actually appreciate reading it. :)

Most non-forumers subscribe to the newsletter so they can get updates about the game, not about what’s going on in the website and the forum. Sure, they can unsubscribe, but then the newsletter will be defeating its own purpose, which is to keep people updated even if they don’t want to keep checking the TSL site & forum.
I think the only time I sent out a Newsletter that actually talked about the game itself was when the VU incident happened.  Every other Newsletter talked about website-related updates, events and/or contests.  The Newsletter itself does keep people updated & informed.  It's simple: people that find the news interesting will visit the site, and people that don't, won't. :scholar:

That only goes to prove my point – people want to see if there are new screenshots released. Since there aren’t any, their next stop will be ranting on the feedback forum ;P
Ranters will always find something to rant about.  It's their job.  If they didn't have anything to complain about, they might lose their reputation. :P

Ahh, but people want dates! Saying “there will be a public beta testing contest in the foreseeable future” isn’t really news worthy of a newsletter. It didn’t even get a headline. Saying “public beta testing contest opens today!” is something people are more likely to be interested in.
Heh, of course it's something they're more likely to be interested in, but the only date they'll be getting at this point in time is: :suffer:  Obviously, I'd send out a Newsletter the day the public beta testing contest opens.  But that day is not today. :P

Of course they are no strangers to us ;) But you do have to consider that most people, and TSL bashers in particular, aren’t really interested in knowing who and what the fannatics are.
If they're not interested in knowing who and what they are, they shouldn't be aggravated by them winning either. :P

It might very well be that 3700+ people would enjoy the journal special, but your expressed purpose (stated in the journal) is to show those 4-5 whiners why it’s taking so long. My point is that your efforts will be lost on them.
Actually, the effort isn't lost on them because the special does answer the question "why is the game taking so long?".  The question the Special doesn't answer is "how far along are you?".  However, the purpose of the special wasn't to answer that second question anyway.  That should have been obvious from the title of the special.

Oh come on, it’s not that bad! Look at the bright side of it – if people bother coming here and rant (even if they are offensive and insulting), it means they still care. I’d hate to see the day people give up asking “when will it be done?” (or saying “It will NEVER get done! I feel it in my bones”) :P
Well, they could easily show their care in a non-offensive manner if they chose to.  Or better yet, they could show they care by actually listening to what we've been telling them over and over again.  Being offensive only increases their chances of getting banned. :P
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Offline Yonkey

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Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2008, 07:17:37 PM »
Entry #2 in the Journal Special entitled "The Big Picture" has now been posted! ;D
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Offline tessspoon

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2008, 09:09:05 PM »
Ooh the hall looks amazing !!!. These are very interesting to read too :D

Offline Yonkey

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2008, 09:43:11 PM »
Thanks Tessy! ;D  Yeah, the Main Hall is pretty nice.  I actually hadn't seen the final in-game set before, until I took that screenshot! XD
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Offline Connway

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2008, 11:55:37 PM »
All of your stuff is very good. Keep up the good work!
You shouldn't worry too much about the people that complain you're taking too long. They just don't understand what is put into making a game. You guys are creating quality work here.

Can't wait until it's finished though.

Offline awesomeasapossum

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2008, 08:05:17 AM »
Oh!!! I can't wait to see the main hall in game!!!
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Offline koko_99_2001

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2008, 08:39:42 AM »
I haven't gotten that far yet! Gosh, I can't wait to see the new scenes :D
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Offline Yonkey

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2008, 02:08:04 PM »
Thanks Connway! ;D

That particular scene appears in Chapter 2, and is one of my personal favourites. :)  There are also a few different camera shots within that scene that reveal the set in more detail.
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Offline Matt620

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2008, 06:04:49 AM »
These journal entries are lovely. It's so nice to see such designs come to life, if only on screen. I'm looking forward to seeing more.

Offline Elessar

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2008, 10:27:42 AM »
Wow, the effort put into these scenes is incredible! I can't believe you guys actually drew out three different pictures (in colour, no less) of the dock and ferry before modeling it.

Considering that this is just the art department, no wonder the game has taken a while to come out!

Keep up the good work, and take your time.
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Offline PirateKingChris

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2008, 01:02:12 PM »
Excellent work, guys! Everytime I see new stuff I get more and more excited  ;D
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Offline copycat

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2008, 04:29:59 PM »
I haven't gotten to the Isle of the Beast yet either. I'm currently breathing down the Oracles' cutscene-neck, but exited every time to refine a bug report.
The quality of the graphics IS quite amazing, and I'm running at a near full-screen resolution. (Won't do full-screen, as I'd have to Alt-Tab to switch from that window to the bug reporting tool-window).
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Offline Oldbushie

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2008, 04:30:44 PM »
I really like seeing how the video game creation process goes. :D It's very educational! :D
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Offline dark-daventry

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2008, 12:56:47 PM »
Lucky beta-testers... Wow, I love these entries! Keep them up, Neil! They're very informative!
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Offline MangoMercury

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Re: Journal Special Entry #2
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2008, 01:00:32 PM »
This month's entry is far FROM weak - those screenshots, and even more so the sketches too, look AMAZING!
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