how old is our beloved king?

[TheReturnofDMD]

Personal canon, is another name for fan fiction  Just as irrelevent on a discussion of what the designers actually intended.

I'm reminded of Peter Spear essentially using his soap box of the King's Quest Companion (4E)/Authorized KQ7 Guide to officially insert what must have been his 'personal canon' that KQ7 was a hoax and a work a fiction, and 'didn't happen' through the use of Derek Karlavaegen, since it didn't fit his view of what a King's Quest Game was. Its really seems to be implied because its far to cartoony, and unrealistic compared to previous games. Only difference, you don't have an official venue to insert your opinion heh heh. Yes, that's something about the KQC, that irks me.

Yes, if mid 40's are "old" in Daventry, and we are told that the excitement of his son's return was too much for his old heart, then on average, the life span in Daventry mustn't be very long. Master Rokaill was just exceptionally ancient, heh heh. Which also means that Mark Seibert, Roberta, et al, must not have seen Graham as living much longer after MOE going by his comment. So he's going die around sixtiesh.

Well as it's never officially stated in the game or manual that Graham is old, or even near death, I don't think we could make a judgement on his age based off a comment by Mark Seibert ten years after the game came out.

And as for the novels, I don't think they really fit Roberta's or anyone else's vision of Daventry/Graham except for the authors. They're basically licensed fan fiction in and of themselves and Roberta only reviewed them after the fact, not having really any hand in their creation, and besides they differ from the games and main sources in many ways (for example Graham is blonde, Daventry can go bankrupt even though it has an endless chest, Valanice coming to Daventry before she married Graham and having her hand maiden in Daventry from when she was a child, etc--Things that contradict the games and established sources).

And KQ4 itself calls Graham ''old'', yet he is still fit enough a year later to go on a dangerous adventure. I don't think personally that he's near death or even ''old'' as we would call old--As in, enfeebled. I don't think he's anywhere near for example the state Edward was in at the start of KQ1.

[Baggins]

Yes, the novels are filled with some issues, I do agree with this. It is however more than "fan fiction" in as much that it was published through sierra licensing, and was published by Berkley with Sierra logo, emblazened on the cover. I've already said that its essentially of second level status however. So I respect your opinion to ignore it, but it is outside the realm of what defines "fan fiction". The age of Rokaill isn't really a matter anyways, since the book says he's pratically ancient , older than old. Unfortunately are plenty of mistakes in the manuals and between the games as well, and those are essentially primary sources :p... For example, in the KQ4 manual, the twins are born, but Alexander is never actually "abducted", and it says they lived a peaceful life at least for a while. It then jumps to Rosella's abducted, and it mentions she was rescued (but doesn't say who rescued her).  Then it just jumps to Graham about to send his adventure's cap to his children. So...

The KQ5 issue is explained in the manuals. You know that right? We still don't have explanation of why Graham is portrayed much older than he was in KQ6 though, with his hair being nearly white, and being far more thin than he appeared in previous games, and that gravely Ye Olde Englishe voice :p. Mark Seibert's comment was at least his explanation. Which doesn't require us to go through hurdles to explain it or "ignore" it.

The fact that you choose to ignore it, makes our arguement rather pointless (since you will ignore it no matter what was said, or even if I found other evidence). I did find possible evidence in InterAction that implies they had originally intended to the story to take place 10-20 years after earlier games, but its from a totally different version of the story (so is even less reliable). Basically that the curse occured when he was a child, and he grew up alone and on his 20th birthday went on the journey to reforge the mask and save Daventry. Completely different.

The fact of the matter is TSL still makes him look younger than he did in MOE.

[TheReturnofDMD]

The KQ5 issue is explained in the manuals. You know that right? We still don't have explanation of why Graham is portrayed much older than he was in KQ6 though, with his hair being nearly white, and being far more thin than he appeared in previous games, and that gravely Ye Olde Englishe voice :p. Mark Seibert's comment was at least his explanation. Which doesn't require us to go through hurdles to explain it or "ignore" it.

The fact that you choose to ignore it, makes our arguement rather pointless (since you will ignore it no matter what was said, or even if I found other evidence). I did find possible evidence in InterAction that implies they had originally intended to the story to take place 10-20 years after earlier games, but its from a totally different version of the story (so is even less reliable). Basically that the curse occured when he was a child, and he grew up alone and on his 20th birthday went on the journey to reforge the mask and save Daventry. Completely different.

The fact of the matter is TSL still makes him look younger than he did in MOE.

I don't remember anything about Graham's age in the KQ5 manual, just a recounting of the previous games, and in the Hint Book it describes him as an "older man but very stout." And the Olde English in the game itself contradicts everything we've heard the characters speak in the previous games.

I choose to ignore it because the creators didn't seem to have any real true sense of continuity in any of the games, be it plotlines, characters or otherwise--Some sources contradict others (For example, Roberta wasn't even aware of the idea of the Black Cloak Society outside of some vague early discussions with Jane Jensen and was unaware the idea made it into the final game and seemed even more unaware that the idea was elaborated on in the KQC, or  the idea that Hagatha is Mordack and Mananann's sister). When you have a continuity as loose as KQ's, and when things aren't stated outright in the games itself than I feel fans came make up their own minds.

If there was ever a clear sense of continuity and whatnot stated in the games or any grand vision the argument might have more grounds. There seems to be many conflicting visions as to KQ--Roberta's, Jane Jensen's, Peter Spear's and finally Mark Seibert. I guess it really all depends on who you believe when it comes to KQ continuity and other issues.

And the early InterAction article, which I've also read, doesn't indicate when in the reign of King Graham that Connor was born--He might've been born a year after Alexander and Rosella, which would then make the ''twenty years later'' a year or so after KQ7. But as you said that was part of an early, discarded plot.

As for his hair getting white, that can happen pretty quickly; His hair was already fully gray by KQ4 and according to the official sources (since he was 44 at the time of KQ6) he was only 43 years old when KQ4 occurred, and by KQ6 (just a year and a half exactly after KQ4--from dialog in KQ6) his hair was already light gray:


The portrait of Graham in MoE doesn't look that much older than his KQ6 portrait, outside of the white hair, which says to me that it's not that much after--Maybe 5 years at most. His face isn't anymore lined, he doesn't look frail, and I doubt Daventry would be using a 20 year old portrait of the King--Graham doesn't seem that vain.


If you take the KQ6 Disc version portrait into account, Graham looks even younger:

[Baggins]

From the King's Quest 5 Manual.

In later years, King Graham's health began to fail, and the royal physicians were powerless to help him. Only a magical fruit from the faraway land of Tamir could bring about a cure and restore the health of Daventry's monarch. Graham's daughter, Princess Rosella, set off in pursuit of this healing magic for her father. On her journey, she performed many brave deeds, and had many great adventures.

With the King's health fully restored, and his family together once more, it was a happy and fulfilled Graham who set out for a walk in the forest one spring day almost a year since Rosella had returned from Tamir. The kingdom was peaceful and prosperous again, and the people were content. Birds were singing in the trees. It seemed an auspicious sign.

BTW, I've already brought up the the fact of hair color in KQ5 and 6, that its more or less a dark grey. But you probably missed that part of the discussion in your blind attempt to ignore things...

However, since you choose to ignore primary sources, I seriously can't be bothered with trying to discuss this situation with you. Its completely pointless...

[TheReturnofDMD]

From the King's Quest 5 Manual.

In later years, King Graham's health began to fail, and the royal physicians were powerless to help him. Only a magical fruit from the faraway land of Tamir could bring about a cure and restore the health of Daventry's monarch. Graham's daughter, Princess Rosella, set off in pursuit of this healing magic for her father. On her journey, she performed many brave deeds, and had many great adventures.

With the King's health fully restored, and his family together once more, it was a happy and fulfilled Graham who set out for a walk in the forest one spring day almost a year since Rosella had returned from Tamir. The kingdom was peaceful and prosperous again, and the people were content. Birds were singing in the trees. It seemed an auspicious sign.

However, since you choose to ignore primary sources, I seriously can't be bothered with trying to discuss this situation with you. Its completely pointless...

In KQ4 he's portrayed as having a sudden, unexpected heart attack, and in the KQC Valanice in telling the 'story' of KQ4 states she felt the excitement of having the two children returned might've been too much for him to bear--it does not mention any ongoing illness or ailment.

I believe the KQ5 manual is referring to the events of KQ4, since the very next sentence details Rosella's adventures to correct his failing health.

[Baggins]

Of course its referring to KQ4, and his healing, and its relationship to KQ5. That was the point I mentioned it in the first place. Did you misread my original post...?

It explains he is fit, because the fruit completely healed him. So he was fit in KQ5 to go on his jaunt by the lake, just as his family was kidnapped.

As for heart attacks they are actually a symptom of other health issues, usually Coronary Artery Diseases, rather than the disease itself. People may look fit on the outside, but it requires poor circulation, clogged arteries etc, to actually have a heart attack. This is one of the reasons why heart attacks seldom go unoticed until they hit someone (because they are hidden). Heart attacks require something in the heart to be blocked. People can also have heart attacks due to birth defects, and those can go by unoticed as well. People don't just get "heart attacks due to surprise", but surprise can cause plaque in the arteries to dislodge, and cause the heart attack.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/HeartAttack/HeartAttack_WhatIs.html

But this something most people should already know, and I shouldn't have to get so technical....

[I_am_so_nifty]

*sighs* Can't we all just get along?

[TheReturnofDMD]

Of course its referring to KQ4, and his healing, and its relationship to KQ5. That was the point I mentioned it in the first place did you misread my original post...

It explains he is fit, because the fruit completely healed him. So he was fit in KQ5.

As for heart attacks they are actually a symptom of other health issues, rather than the disease itself. People may look fit on the outside, but it requires poor circulation, clogged arteries etc, to actually have a heart attack. This is one of the reasons why heart attacks seldom go unoticed until they hit someone (because they are hidden). Heart attacks require something in the heart to be blocked. People can also have heart attacks due to birth defects, and those can go by unoticed as well.

But it doesn't mean he wasn't fit before hand, and he's not obese or heavyset in KQ4--In fact before he tosses the hat he looks to be fit, with the same stout, strongly built physique he has in KQ5.

And heart attacks can happen magically--This is a fantasy fairy tale series, remember, not a medically accurate edutainment game. They can be brought on by stress, and I imagine the sudden relief of near 18 years of missing his son along with his kingdom desolated and his daughter saved at the last minute from possibly being eaten by a dragon combined to give him his heart attack. I don't think it was a medically accurate event.

And Valanice in the KQC doesn't say anything along the lines of "Graham's health had been failing for months/years/weeks" before his heart attack or that he hadn't been well, in fact her only explanation is that it was probably the surprise of the sudden series of positive events. It doesn't indicate that physicians had been treating him for years for ill health.

[Baggins]

You don't have to be physically unfit, overweight or obese to get a heart attack, many people who actually die of heart attacks appear outwardly healthy... It hits athletes every year, i.e. "athlete sudden death"... and most are around age 30, statistically :p... Heart attacks are really not a good indicator of age (nor really an indicator of physical health). Although most people who die of heart attacks are usually over age 35 or older.

Infact Valanice's explanation fits the classic descriptions of a real heart attack, set on by excitement. Nothing magical about it. Yes, they can be brought on stress, but that's because its dislodging the naturally occuring plaque that builds up over the course of a person's life. It can hit any time :p... There are aways to mininize said plaque buildup, however. Most people don't go through that kind of diet.

As for the whole "magical heart attack" seems to me you are one of those KQ2+ fanon types eh? Do you also ignore KQ2 as well?

I won't even take that one seriously... Only way I would take a magical heart attack theory seriously, is there was a source that emphatically said he died of a "magical heart attack". Sorry I'll stick to occam's razor if you please. It takes far less speculation to stick to the real world definition of a heart attack (without having to resort to making things up):p.

We are on completley different sides of the fan spectrum (apples vs oranges?)... it really is pointless for us to continue to this discussion. I'm going to say at this point i'm going to have to just agree to disagree with you.

[TheReturnofDMD]

You don't have to be physically unfit, overweight or obese to get a heart attack, many people who actually die of heart attacks appear outwardly healthy... It hits athletes every year, i.e. "athlete sudden death"... and most are around age 30, statistically :p... Heart attacks are really not a good indicator of age. Although most people who die of heart attacks are usually over age 35 or older.

Infact Valanice's explanation fits the classic descriptions of a real heart attack, set on by excitement. Nothing magical about it. Yes, they can be brought on stress, but that's because its dislodging the naturally occuring plaque that builds up over the course of a person's life. It can hit any time :p...

As for the whole "magical heart attack" seems to me you are one of those KQ2+ fanon types eh?

I won't even take that one seriously... Only way I would take a magical heart attack theory seriously, is there was a source that emphatically said he died of a "magical heart attack". Sorry I'll stick to occam's razor if you please.

We are on completley different sides of the fan spectrum... it really is pointless for us to continue to this discussion. I'm going to say at this point i'm going to have to just agree to disagree with you.

Indeed, and I think seeing as we have a very uncemented canon in the KQ universe any interpretation is just as valid as the other. You have your interpretation, I have mine.

Remember, we're dealing with a series where Roberta, the creator of the KQ series, wasn't even aware of the existence of the Black Cloak Society in KQ6 and as far as she knew it wasn't mentioned in the game and was only a sketchy idea in the early design stages of KQ6. That says a lot about how much the game designers memory and opinions can be taken on as 'fact' these minute canon issues. If you take Roberta's POV, and go against the game, there is no BCS except in theory, for example.

[Cez]

Canon vs non-canon is always tricky when writing about someone else's work, especially when that work tends to be so inconsistent. Since there wasn't anything that was really set on stone, we wrote down our own timeline so that we could keep track of things. Of course, we probably tweaked it a bit to fit our story, but since those details are not really in the game, we just used them for some reference, we don't really change any of the stories pre-TSL.

There are in fact, bigger things we are adding to the canon that will surprise a few Age and years... not so important.

That said, our game begins when Rosella and Alex has just turned 21. I think we put Alexander at 19 in KQ6, so two years have passed between 6 and TSL.

We also have to keep in mind that a lot of times writers tend to forget things. I know it's sloppy, and I know it shouldn't be, but especially with a series that has passed through many writers, things tend to get lost. As a writer, you may write something that you don't give much thought at the moment, and then later it comes to bite you in the ass because fans apparently are paying more attention than you are

Anyways, you are the guys that remind us to keep on our toes about details!

[Baggins]

Ya, the age 19 for KQ6 could actually conform to the KQC/KQ5(about screen)/KQ4 manual/KQ6 Hintbook timeline. The KQ6 = 25 years after KQ1, and KQ6 is 20 years after KQ2.

It doesn't work so well if one ignores the KQ4 manual and works from the KQ5 hintbook/Interaction Roberta article.

The real issue is when and what time they were born. Your original timeline had them born 3 years after KQ1, the KQ4 manual had them born 5 years after KQ1.

The Roberta Williams KQ5 Hintbook/InterAction, has them born about 7 years after KQ1, and about 18 in KQ6.

The only other particular issue, is what season they were born. KQ3/SNW had their birthday late summer/early autumn. You had their b-day in december.

With your permission once the game is released, I might try to see how your game will fit if set upon each timeline the idea of him being "21", and how that would compare to any internal dates mentioned in the game.

It would possibly place it about 26/27 years after KQ1, if no other facts contradict (on the KQ4 manual/KQC based timeline).

[crayauchtin]

In KQ4 he's portrayed as having a sudden, unexpected heart attack, and in the KQC Valanice in telling the 'story' of KQ4 states she felt the excitement of having the two children returned might've been too much for him to bear--it does not mention any ongoing illness or ailment.

I believe the KQ5 manual is referring to the events of KQ4, since the very next sentence details Rosella's adventures to correct his failing health.

You can have a heart attack at any age, the chance simply increases with age. His heart attack has absolutely no relevance discussions of his age.

[Baggins]

Yep, that's what I've been trying to say, LOL.

[TheReturnofDMD]

I still don't agree that Graham is near death or anywhere even near death in MoE, both in terms of age and physically. He still seems both physically and mentally well.

[Farquhar]

You guys may have already covered this, but as for Graham's age, it's also possible that the magical fruit from KQIV rejuvenated Graham to the point that despite his age (whatever it may be LOL) he is physically much younger and more energetic. He may even live longer now....

[Baggins]

I think that's a given.

The main arguement seems to be the placement of MOE in relationship to KQ7 though, was it 4-10 years away (making him somewhere between 50ish-60ish)? or not....and why did TSL place it within 1 year from KQ7 (making him 43)?  It's all rather unclear. Plus why does Graham in TSL look younger than he appears in MoE. They could have at least made his hair whiter in TSL.

Plus something about certain fans wanting to ignore every thing in the previous games, that they don't like, and have their own version of events (plus possibly considering fan games information "canon" to the official stuff).

[TheReturnofDMD]

I think that's a given.

The main arguement seems to be the placement of MOE in relationship to KQ7 though, was it 4-10 years away (making him somewhere between 50ish-60ish)? or not....and why did TSL place it within 1 year from KQ7 (making him 43)?  It's all rather unclear. Plus why does Graham in TSL look younger than he appears in MoE. They could have at least made his hair whiter in TSL.

Plus something about certain fans wanting to ignore every thing in the previous games, that they don't like, and have their own version of events (plus possibly considering fan games information "canon" to the official stuff).

Well having games be close together time frame wise is nothing new, really. King's Quest IV starts off exactly at the end of KQ3, meaning the same month/year.

King's Quests V, VI and VII all take place either in the same year or at least within a few months of each other. In KQ4, Alex and Rosella's 18th birthday is very close. In the KQ5 manual we're told a year has passed since KQ4, making them around 19.

About six months pass between KQ5 and Alexander reaching the Green Isles (Cassima says she's been locked in her room for nearly 6 months, probably right from the time she came home). Alexander would be 19 at this time.

Rosella is 19 years old, nearing 20, when KQ7 happens--So it could possibly be happening either within the three months that Alexander is at sea, or maybe a few months after. Since Alex is around 19 years and 6 months old at the time of KQ6, he's nearing 20, as would be Rosella. So KQ5, 6 and 7 all occur possibly within the same year.

So really King's Quests III, IV, V, VI and VIII all take place within about 2 years or a year and 8 months.

As to Graham looking younger in TSL, really the only thing that makes him look younger is his hair color (And even in the real medieval times people had hair dye, I don't see why in a fantasy world such as KQ they couldn't or wouldn't dye their hair) The Saxons who faced the Romans were reported to have dyed their hair and their beards red, green or even blue.  Maybe Graham on a visit to the Green Isles had Shamir dye his hair a bit darker with magic. Who knows.

Graham's face in MOE due to the low res 3D isn't really that clear in the cut scenes, and his portrait in the Castle looks exactly the same as KQ6 except his hair is white, meaning he hasn't aged too much--They didn't go and age the portrait or create a new, much older appearing Portrait, and Valanice's portrait is EXACTLY the same as she appears in KQ6 except for the color of her outfit--She hasn't aged at all. Actually if anything, Valanice in TSL looks older than her portrait in MoE.

So really the only contradiction in terms of 'aging' is Graham's hair color.

And as for people ignoring things in games, for myself it's only one game--MoE--and that game will always be the ''red headed stepchild'' of the KQ series for many reasons. Everything else lines up pretty well.

It really all depends on your view of "Canon." For some people, it's all the games, plus all the books. For some it's all the games including the remakes plus the books.  For other's it's purely games 1-7 and the books. Some people disregard the books totally and just go on the games, others take everything plus the statements of designers.

Personally I put just what we see in games I-VII on "A+" level canon, The KQC on "A" level canon,  the game manuals  (as other material sometimes contracts them) on "A-" level Canon, while MoE is "B" level canon and the novels are "B-" level, and finally the special features (such as the World of Daventry Q&A game) as "C" canon, which means their status as canon is disputable.

[I_am_so_nifty]

Ignoring an entire game is kind of rough. However, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion. I suggest that we implement that whole "agree to disagree" thing at this point.

[TheReturnofDMD]

Ignoring an entire game is kind of rough. However, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion. I suggest that we implement that whole "agree to disagree" thing at this point.

I don't ignore it, it's just there's certain parts of it I find hard to 'digest' so to speak. It has it's place, but I think it as a 'distortion' of the truth of what really happened--Sort of how Peter Spear viewed KQ7 as being a total fabrication. Some elements of the game I like, some I in my own view of the continuity retcon to fit in closer with the other games.