Best Twlight Reviews EVER (SPOILERS)

[KatieHal]

Deloria--well, I'm not with you on that one. The wangsting about sex when they clearly both wanted to go ahead and do it was overdrawn, yes, but it wouldn't solve the problems of them both being horrible people who controlled and manipulated one another and everyone around them including each other.

LOL, that line about the combs just made me laugh. "Hey Bella, we'll use something old from your family! But since you're poor and not gloriously rich like us Cullens, we're going to make it BETTER with MONEY."

[Haids1987]

Besides, why the graphic sex scene?!  It doesn't even show him ripping up the headboard in the books!

Did you seriously just ask why a movie aimed at teenage girls has sex in it?

Teenage girls don't particularly enjoy sex scenes, honestly.   At least, most teenage girls I know don't.  You're thinking boys.  Teenage boys like sex scenes!   A well-ripped shirtless male? Bring it on. Watching two actors pretend to have sex?  Ugh.

(Posted on: June 08, 2011, 06:43:50 PM)

Deloria--well, I'm not with you on that one. The wangsting about sex when they clearly both wanted to go ahead and do it was overdrawn, yes, but it wouldn't solve the problems of them both being horrible people...

Seriously, I think they talk about having sex in every book of the series.  DO IT OR GET OFF THE RIDICULOUSLY ORNATE OVERPRICED BED, GUYS!

But I gotta say, although it was overdrawn, I respected the author for not making them do it before they were married.  Yes, the idea was dragged out and melodramatic, but I thought that was a good touch.  First off, it shows Edward's human upbringing--the ideals, the timeframe he grew up in, the fact that it reiterates that he's such a gentleman, etc.  But what I really liked--and yes, I know it sounds ridiculously old-school, so please forgive me--it also plants the idea in the young girls reading it that it's okay to wait for marriage.  Yes, there are actually people in the world who don't just hop into bed (or the ocean, in Bella and Edward's case ) with someone just because their hormones are going crazy; they actually want to wait until they're married to have sex.  It was one of the few times where I was like, "Go Stephenie!"

[KatieHal]

I think teenaged girls would be more interested in them than you might think--but the what kind and how it's written/shot, etc, would also factor into it. Which is sort of a whole other discussion.

There is that, and presenting a view of and characters who practice abstinence is indeed fine, but the way they go about it only echoes the other issues they have--Bella wants to have sex, Edward basically blackmails her into getting married before he'll do so. The idea that he's been alive and a teenager for over a hundred years and never had sex even once is also just ridiculous, particularly given the high voltage emotions newborn vamps are described as having frequently.

Thing is, and I by no means have read enough to know this for certain, but I get the impression that a lot of YA novels don't show teens having sex before marriage; but do show girls who do have sex as being the villainized characters. It's just the impression I get. Haids, actually, what is the take on all that in the Vampire Diaries books? I'm curious. It comes up in the show, but honestly sex is pretty much a sidenote to the rest of the plot (which is pretty cool, too, I have to say).

I can think of an exception--the Alanna books by Tamora Pierce. Alanna has sex before marriage, and with more than one person, but all of those relationships are explored in depth, are meaningful ones but not always totally-in-love relationships, and they take precautions against pregnancy. I think it's fantastic that she presented it in a realistic and responsible way.

[Haids1987]

I can think of an exception--the Alanna books by Tamora Pierce. Alanna has sex before marriage, and with more than one person, but all of those relationships are explored in depth, are meaningful ones but not always totally-in-love relationships, and they take precautions against pregnancy. I think it's fantastic that she presented it in a realistic and responsible way.

See, that's cool too! Sex in the teeange world is a big deal, whether we like it or not, and it's also refreshing to see a realistic take on it, like in the books you described, Katie.  The bottom line is, teenage girls are curious about sex.  When it shows up in a book that was designed for their age group, it's a way of exploring the idea without actually doing it.  Seeing it shown from different angles is a way for girls to decide for themselves what their values are--whether they're true-to-life, like in the Alanna books, or romanticised and flowery like in Twilight.  Either way, they see their options and can start forming their own ideas.

See, I'm old-school and personally value the idea for myself of not having sex before marriage.  I'm about to hop on a soapbox here for a minute, so scroll over with caution. [spoiler]  I'm not saying that "ZOMG everyone who has had sex before marriage has made the worst decision ever and is so so wrong!!" at all, just to be clear.  I definitely don't want to offend anyone!  I'm just saying that for myself, Hailey Dundas, I have chosen not to have sex before marriage and that is what I believe in for me.  Everyone else is on their own journey and are free to choose whatever works for them, I'm not here to judge or look down on them.  I just thought it was cool to see those kinds of values--however twisted and conniving they were --incorporated into Twilight.[/spoiler]

Anyway...the Vampire Diaries books, hmm?  She kind of touches on the idea of sex, but...you know what, I'll ramble about it in the Vampire Diaries thread!

[glottal]

I agree that it's good for YA fiction to show a variety of different ways people can have (or not have) sexual relationships.

Though personally, I never understood why saving sex for marriage, barring specific religious beliefs, is worthwhile.  I'm not saying it's bad - whatever floats your boat - I just don't understand why people (aside from religious reasons) would do it.  But then, my parents never bothered to  get married, so having grown up in a household where nobody had ever been married, marriage is probably a more alien concept to me than it is to most of the people in this forum (I myself am much more likely to have a kid than to ever get married).

[snabbott]

But what I really liked--and yes, I know it sounds ridiculously old-school, so please forgive me--it also plants the idea in the young girls reading it that it's okay to wait for marriage.  Yes, there are actually people in the world who don't just hop into bed (or the ocean, in Bella and Edward's case ) with someone just because their hormones are going crazy; they actually want to wait until they're married to have sex.  It was one of the few times where I was like, "Go Stephenie!"

Well, Stephenie Meyer is a Mormon, so that might have something to do with it.

[KatieHal]

I'm pretty sure it has a LOT to do with a LOT of the story!

[Deloria]

I suspect it's a cultural thing. I was brought up to consider sex a fairly important part of any close relationship and never even considered abstaining until I met someone with a similar worldview to yours, made worse by the fact that he insisted he had the moral high ground and that there was something wrong with me for not having the same beliefs. It led to a lot of fights and passive-aggression, even though we would have been quite compatible in many other ways. So we broke up after trying to make things work for four years. It was very, very messy. But it was the best thing I've ever done because now I feel properly loved and valued.

[Arkillian]

I think the point was more of a romantic one. I read Twilight, and honestly, if you read the book, the process isn't as sudden and isn't as creepy. I imagine that the fans enjoyed Twilight more cause they knew the ACTUAL pace of the events, than new people that didn't like a movie cause an actor is hot. Edward is acting as humanly as a Vampire can, and I think that's sweet. I don't think it gives the wrong message to kids. I think if teenagers understand that vampires are NOT real, then it's fine.

I have a BIG problem with Bella however cause she's a horrible person. They had a pretty actor play her in the movie (despite her lack of emotion range) so it hides how mean she is to her friends and family, and that's where the moral issues begin. See, Vampire x human worked in Buffy the vampire Slayer cause Buffy always had moral grounding. Sure, there was drama, but that happens when you date vampires. She had an extraordinary life (being a vampire slayer- not a student at a school that happens to love a vampire), so considering this, she was still a great friend and a mostly caring daughter. Bella shuts EVERYONE around her out, plays Jacob, has a fickle heart, stands up friends, thinks of herself first and not others, and has the personality of dried bread. What's her hobbies? Edward Cullen. That's it. Why on EARTH am I interested? Everyone else in the story is interesting. I reckon if you take her out, it'd be a good story.

My friend suggested that a 'tragically beautiful teen trapped in the wrong age' type character would be more interesting. I think Bella needs alot more than an M.O. change to become likeable as a character.

[Haids1987]

I have a BIG problem with Bella however cause she's a horrible person. They had a pretty actor play her in the movie (despite her lack of emotion range) so it hides how mean she is to her friends and family, and that's where the moral issues begin...Bella shuts EVERYONE around her out, plays Jacob, has a fickle heart, stands up friends, thinks of herself first and not others, and has the personality of dried bread. What's her hobbies? Edward Cullen. That's it.

Well said. Bella decides that she wants Edward and ONLY Edward, so demands to become a vampire just so she can have him forever, completely not caring that she's losing everyone else who she's ever been close to.  She claims that Jacob is her best friend, but she treats him like total and complete s*** when Edward decides he wants her again.  She willingly decides that her own mother isn't worth holding onto, so she'll gradually start cutting her out of her life.  She even would have cut out her father, who she's very close to, if Jacob hadn't saved her the trouble by telling him the truth about the Cullens and the werewolves!  She's selfish and manipulating, yet everyone fawns over her.

All that being said, I can't say it makes me hate the book series completely. I actually really enjoyed them, though I will say from here to eternity that the whole concept is insane, especially if you dissect it.  When I describe it to people, I hear the words come out of my mouth and I'm like, "Oh my God, this is LUDACRIS."  I still like it, though!  How sad am I? 

(Posted on: June 09, 2011, 05:02:25 PM)

Though personally, I never understood why saving sex for marriage, barring specific religious beliefs, is worthwhile.  I'm not saying it's bad - whatever floats your boat - I just don't understand why people (aside from religious reasons) would do it.

In a nutshell: I am a religious person, but the whole "true love waits" thing is not the entire reason I've decided to wait.  The way I feel about it, I only want to experience that kind of intimacy with the person who I'm going to marry.  If I'm willing to spend the rest of my life with a guy, I'm willing to wait for God to send him to me before I have sex.

[Arkillian]

All that being said, I can't say it makes me hate the book series completely. I actually really enjoyed them, though I will say from here to eternity that the whole concept is insane, especially if you dissect it.  When I describe it to people, I hear the words come out of my mouth and I'm like, "Oh my God, this is LUDACRIS."  I still like it, though!  How sad am I? 

Well, it's badly written, but professionally printed fanfic issues aside, the vampire falling for a human is not a new concept. eyer DID however rewrite alot of rules of vampires which to me is a no no. She's said so herself- she doesn't know anything about vampires. If she did, then maybe it'd be a liked story cause the intent is there. Not the research.

Then again- no amount of accuracy can fix a Mary Sue like Bella.

[Haids1987]

Meyer DID however rewrite alot of rules of vampires which to me is a no no.

Sparkling.

Enough said.

[Arkillian]

I don't mind the sparkling actually. It's flavour. The big one was making them day walkers. Vampires are hunters of the dark. It would've been much more interesting if the Cullens didn't go to school on sunny days if it actually burnt their flesh That would've been believable to a vampire fan rather than sparkling in the sunlight which is totally gay. I wouldn't mind the sparkles if there was a reason that was viable. If he was a pixie or something I'd believe it. A bad ass vampire? No. Perhaps if the manifestation of the vampire gene in them made them permanently luminescent then sure- I'd buy that for a dollar, but sparkling in sunlight replacing the vampire's BIGGEST weakness besides crosses, holy water and garlic like they're traditionally weak against? What kills these things? Their own kind. Not humans. What human could POSSIBLY cut their head off in time to burnt it? They don't sleep. No weaknesses. They're eternal. Why are they not gods already? Where's their sense of mortality?

[KatieHal]

Ugh. Yeah, she just....created some pretty pretty totally awesome no downsides at all creature, threw in blood drinking, and called it a vampire. They are NOT vampires. They don't even have FANGS!

[Arkillian]

Well, no they don't, but they do still suck blood so technically it's just her vampires opposed to traditional vampires. I guess it's like some of the arguments about MoE not being a King's Quest game. It's some people's tastes, but not everyone's, but it's still a King's Quest game at the end of the day.  I think she would've been better making up a species of vampire that was ascended or something, or something different all together. There's nothing actually wrong with what she's done. Just her reasons or lack of. Stuff like this happens all the time. Look at Elves and how much they've changed since Tolkin. You need to ask what kind of Elves they are before you start talking. Vampires have so many variations it's just not funny.

[Haids1987]

I think she would've been better making up a species of vampire that was ascended or something, or something different all together.

Well, it's not too far-fetched that perhaps she was going for something like that.  She has Edward mention at the end of Breaking Dawn that there are in fact actual werewolves, or "Children of the Moon," as they're called in the series, not just the Quileute shape-shifting wolves.

I know she based her vampires off of a dream she had, where Edward and Bella were in the meadow talking and he was sparkling, which is where that came from.  She built the rest of the stories around that one scene, so it's understandable that she had to make some..."creative adjustments."

[Arkillian]

Yeah- I saw that interview too which changed my opinion of her slightly. She REALLY should've done more research, but for what Twilight is, it's not bad. It's just as if you were on Fanfic.net reading an amateur story about vampires. She stretched the meaning of everything in the story to her liking, and went with it. I'd be fine with that if Bella wasn't such a jerk.

That's just how I see it though. I'm all for stretching the rules if you know what they are. I do that in my story with Arkillian Dragons. They're not dragons, but a different branch of them. It adds new dynamic to something familiar without saying "Oh yeah- I'm an idiot"

[LadyTerra]

I think the point was more of a romantic one. I read Twilight, and honestly, if you read the book, the process isn't as sudden and isn't as creepy. I imagine that the fans enjoyed Twilight more cause they knew the ACTUAL pace of the events, than new people that didn't like a movie cause an actor is hot. Edward is acting as humanly as a Vampire can, and I think that's sweet. I don't think it gives the wrong message to kids. I think if teenagers understand that vampires are NOT real, then it's fine.

I disagree with you on that.  Edward treats Bella like as much crap as she treats everyone else.  All that talk about how "fragile" and "breakable" really bugs me.  He doesn't show any actual respect for her.  And it does give the wrong message to kids: if you get into an abusive relationship, you will be happy, but if you find someone who seems to respect you (Jacob), then it's not "meant to be."

That's another thing that bothers me about this series.  I hate the idea of predestination, especially in the case of imprinting with the shapeshifters.  I remember a Mormon trying to explain this to me: "You have free will, but there's one path God wants you to follow, and that's the one you have to follow."  Then what's the point of having free will in the first place if your goal is to follow the "right" path?

[Haids1987]

I remember a Mormon trying to explain this to me: "You have free will, but there's one path God wants you to follow, and that's the one you have to follow."  Then what's the point of having free will in the first place if your goal is to follow the "right" path?

According to what I believe as a Christian: you have the path God would like you to follow (a godly, righteous path), but you don't have to follow it.  He gives you opportunities that can lead you down different roads, but ultimately it's your decision how it all turns out. 

That being said, I don't think He looks at you and is like, "Hmmm.  Looks like a plumber to me!" and leads you down the road that'll turn you into a plumber.  I think He leads you down a weird, meandering path that is full of forks (no pun intended ), so if being a plumber is where you ultimately happen to end up, then go you!  I think He just wants you to be happy, whatever you decide.

[LadyTerra]

I remember a Mormon trying to explain this to me: "You have free will, but there's one path God wants you to follow, and that's the one you have to follow."  Then what's the point of having free will in the first place if your goal is to follow the "right" path?

According to what I believe as a Christian: you have the path God would like you to follow (a godly, righteous path), but you don't have to follow it.  He gives you opportunities that can lead you down different roads, but ultimately it's your decision how it all turns out. 

That being said, I don't think He looks at you and is like, "Hmmm.  Looks like a plumber to me!" and leads you down the road that'll turn you into a plumber.  I think He leads you down a weird, meandering path that is full of forks (no pun intended ), so if being a plumber is where you ultimately happen to end up, then go you!  I think He just wants you to be happy, whatever you decide.

Heh.  Reminds me of the Sims.