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Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Started by Bludshot, December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM

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Lambonius

Quote from: KatieHal on June 11, 2013, 08:56:32 AM
Quote from: Lambonius on June 11, 2013, 07:21:04 AM
I have to say though, I find the "I won't watch anything that runs counter to the opinion I already hold" responses to be rather rock-headed.  Broadening one's horizons is what makes one grow as a person.

Hah--interesting thing is, you could be saying that about people who won't watch the rebuttal video but also about people who flat-out refuse to believe Anita has anything worth listening in the first place as well.

That's what I meant--guess I wasn't clear enough there.  Even if you think you know what you're going to think of something, you should still check it out, because enlightenment comes in many unexpected forms and places.

Heck, that's why I played TSL!  ;)

KatieHal

Ba-dum-ching. :P

But yes--even if you end up agreeing or not agreeing with things, taking them in and listening to viewpoints not your own is always worthwhile. Ultimately you're the only person who has your exact view and experience and opinions, and in shocking news, the world does not revolve around you and not everything is about you. (I use "you" in the generalized sense here.)

Tomatensaft described this well in his post--the idea of accepting that if something is being described that isn't a thing that affects you, then you'd do well to listen, because you can't fully know what you can't possibly experience. Or, in fewer words, this is what people mean when they say "check your privilege". Most often this is said because the person who's claiming this point of view can't possibly be real is coming from a "privileged" position of not ever experiencing this kind of treatment or phenomena. In the case of this topic, in its broadest terms, if you're not female, you don't know what it's like to experience games and the gaming culture from that point of view, and you therefore have no basis to claim prejudices and sexism "don't exist" because to you, no, of course they don't. If you aren't the target, you don't know what it's like to be the target. I wouldn't claim to know better than a transgender person, for example, if those kinds of prejudices exist in society or even in gaming about or against being trans. But I can still listen to their experience and opinions and come away better informed about a viewpoint that is not my own, and hopefully be able to recognize these things when I encounter them after that, be more aware of not only of the actions of others but also my own.

Ultimately, really, that's what the video series is about (IMO): pointing out that these things exist is worthwhile and worth listening to. Maybe she's overstating it, maybe not, but the point is to think about them & why they exist. Does it reflect the culture? Is that a good or bad thing? And does changing the reflection mean that we can, in turn, change the culture?

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Neonivek

I don't know (referring to earlier posts, not to KatieHal) sometimes I won't watch a rebuttal video or even a video in defense of Tropes Versus Women because they are just flat out spiteful.

Anita's videos are flawed, and while the degree is up for opinion the bulk of people who disagree with her do the most spiteful tactics and stabs. In fact the people who are in defense of her are so mocking.

While videos in defense of Anita's tend to call anyone who would find fault in it sexist.

Quotecheck your privilege

I hate that term so so much. Though mostly because my experience in feminist discussions is that for the most part they try to put up the largest and thickest wall against men possible.

I can understand the "Check your privilege" on its original intention which is that it is about trying to see past your own advantages to see the disadvantages in others. Yet it is often used as a wall by just saying "Men can't know sexism or lack of sexism because they have all the advantages".

It is sort of what we have called the Discrimination Olympics. When a conversation breaks down and both sides have to argue who gets it worse off.

QuoteMaybe she's overstating it

To me the problem is that she hasn't stated it. It is why the counter arguments tend to get Anita's videos wrong is because she intentionally leaves things so vague in order for the audience to convince themselves of Anita's position.

It isn't their fault and frankly believing that Anita is against these tropes themselves is a valid interpretation especially in the second. (though in the second the basic premise is she is against violence against women seeming special)

KatieHal

Yeah, the phrase can sound very aggressive and off-putting. Unfortunate, because it's otherwise a convenient shorthand. And yeah, at least when I use it, I don't mean it in the "you know nothing [Jon Snow]!" kind of way. More that, hey, this isn't the way you experience the world--don't think you know more about it than the person or people who DO experience it that way.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Neonivek

#364
QuoteMore that, hey, this isn't the way you experience the world--don't think you know more about it than the person or people who DO experience it that way.

At the same time though, there is the unprivileged bias. People who are abused also can have a very skewed image of how the world works as well.

Which for topics such as sexism is doubly true because there is a strong fear culture, or shall we forget the Super bowl abuse myth.

Mostly in these conversations when someone says they don't see sexism, treat what they say as valid and then disagree. What we get from "check your privilege" as we can see on this board is a lot of attacks. Which is honestly a shame because I believe you KatieHal that, that is exactly how you use it. People need to see beyond their grasp.

Lambonius

Quote from: Neonivek on June 11, 2013, 02:18:59 PM
People need to see beyond their grasp.

Didn't I just say this several posts ago?  ;)

darthkiwi

Quote from: Lambonius on June 10, 2013, 04:30:57 PM
Quote from: darthkiwi on June 10, 2013, 02:49:28 PM
Frankly, assuming that your significant other is helpless and you have a responsibility to rescue her (if you're a straight man) is an INSULT to her, and shows that you don't trust her to be able to sort out her problem herself.

That might be one of the most ridiculously cynical statements I've seen on this forum in quite a while.

Maybe I should restate what I meant.

If somebody has a problem that they can't fix on their own or which they would like help fixing, and you're in a position to help then, yes, obviously, helping would be good. This goes for all sexes and all genders.

My problem is that for a long time now men have been seen as protectors, guardians and overall problem-fixers. The traditional image would be a man going off to fight for his family while they stay at home waiting for him - but this needn't apply to warfare, it could be the man going off to work while the women and children stay at home, it could be the man going to have an argument with the father of someone who's bullying his child, it could even be the man putting up shelves or helping people carry heavy objects.

Now this is not necessarily a problem because, you know, s*** happens and problems need to be fixed. My problem is that until quite recently this was the DEFINITION OF MASCULINITY - ie. men had to do these things in order to feel that they were "real men" and therefore had worth. So what happens when this becomes the definition of what it means to be a man? Men end up defaulting to "Oh, I should fix that because I'm a man and I'm strong and capable". Someone has a problem? He should fix it. Someone insulted him or someone he loves? He should go beat them up.

But you know what? You can't solve all problems. One person can only do so much, and a man in that mindset is a very particular sort of person who might not be able to solve the problem BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS. What I mean is, there are certain problems where an enraged man blundering in is not going to help. In fact, the biggest problem I see with this system is that very often, people trying to help end up making things worse, though they might have the best of intentions. If you define your self-worth through fixing other people's problems in a no-nonsense, cut-through-all-the-cr** way, you're going to see problems everywhere, and you're going to try to cut a lot of cr**. And that could easily just make things worse, because sometimes it's just best to leave things alone.
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

Bludshot

Quote from: Lambonius on June 11, 2013, 10:34:47 AM
Quote from: KatieHal on June 11, 2013, 08:56:32 AM
Quote from: Lambonius on June 11, 2013, 07:21:04 AM
I have to say though, I find the "I won't watch anything that runs counter to the opinion I already hold" responses to be rather rock-headed.  Broadening one's horizons is what makes one grow as a person.

Hah--interesting thing is, you could be saying that about people who won't watch the rebuttal video but also about people who flat-out refuse to believe Anita has anything worth listening in the first place as well.

That's what I meant--guess I wasn't clear enough there.  Even if you think you know what you're going to think of something, you should still check it out, because enlightenment comes in many unexpected forms and places.

Heck, that's why I played TSL!  ;)

Hence why I made the thread, I would rather discuss it here than with a video that clearly has no respect for issue, I don't see the need to give myself a headache listening to another fool miss the point. 

Besides last rebuttal video I watched in this thread didn't have any good points in my perspective, and no one bothered to tell me what they liked about it in the first place.  It would be easier if you just said what you took away from at video that made you want post it.
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

Tomatensaft

Well, I'd like to reply to this:

Quote from: Neonivek on June 11, 2013, 12:56:29 AM
Quoteonly works when you completely deny the history, the tradition and the culture of misogyny
Well no, because if you brought up the tradition and culture of misogyny you would understand that many of these roles came about not because of a notion of male superiority, but because they fit within certain story arcs. Often these were used as a metaphor to understand certain power relationships.

Ok I cannot write anymore. So I have to stop here. I will apologize though since by only commenting and talking about these two quotes it is a very disjointed conversation. You are free to respond but remember these thoughts are mostly incomplete (except my overall opinion on Anita's videos).

Because this is only a contradiction if you want it to be a contradiction (like the AA wants it to be.)

Yes, they fit with certain story arcs and yes, sometimes they were (and are) used to understand certain power relations, or to show reactions to those relations, or to serve as catharsis etc. etc. And sometimes they do that pretty well or are even really high art. In Wagner's Ring des Nibelungen Siegfried und Brünnhilde, the hero and the valkyre, acknowledge their love first, then have sex, the curtain falls and next: she stays at home and he goes out to seek adventure. And then everything goes terribly wrong of course – like so often when the girl stays at home and the boys go out to seek fun and adventure.

The point is: those stories aren't neccessarily failed or bad or evil or something. But just like a good author will always and neccessarily, wether he wants it or not, tell you something about the society he's living in, even if he (or she, of course) only writes honestly about her private, personal problems, those tropes and story arcs involve ... err ... let's say: hidden narratives. They also tell you something about the gender roles the creators believe(d) in, even if they wanted to tell you something else. Or they can show you that the creator could imagine dragons, vampires and orcs but thought that a woman in a position of power would be too "unrealistic" for the "middle ages".

And when those ideas are powerful enough, they also shape the ideas of others. Like a circle: Society -> Writer -> Society -> Writer etc. And the unintended ideas can be even more powerful than the inteded. Which is also why I think it's so important to point out that discrimination isn't simply an ill intent. You don't need an ill intent to internalize some transphobic, misogynic, homophobic (...) elements if you have been socialized in a (...) society. The actual problems begins when we can't talk enough about where those things come from and how we can get rid of them, because we have to waste so much time with discussing if they even exist. (Amongst us and the things we like. Everyone easily admits of course that they exist amongst those stupid backwarded "others" like muslims or christians or russians or texans, germans or americans, etc. etc.)


MikPal

So, watched FemFreq. Amazing. False dichotomies, appeals to ignorance, extremely poor research that could be done with an hour surfing in TVTropes.org (which itself is an extremely poor source for actual research), the games were only played to get footage (Prey gets an extremely sad mention with Anita taking a scene extremely out of context to make it fit her narrative*), no real arguments, plenty of theories that would be welcome in any conspiracy theorists closet and worst of all, no discussion with even the reasonable arguments being thrown in the "I got threats"-bin. Hah, according to her standards even Erica Reed would be too manly for Anita to give a thumbs up.

So, why did people give money to this prejudiced person again?


*Jen's not the only person close to Tommy that dies and motivates him to move on, but I quess "grandpa in the fridge" would have been too much out of Anita's narrative. Heck, even in the end Jen's and his grandfather's spirits save Tommy. In the end the theme of the story is that sometimes life is about letting the things you love go. Tommy's grandfather, Jen, godhood. It is even hinted in the beginning where Tommy wants to leave the reservation with Jen who refuses to go with him thus within the first five minutes ending their relationship. Did I also mention that there are kids dying too? The whole game is meant to make you feel extremely uneasy with plenty of men running around in underwear whimpering of fear.



QuoteAnd acting in a certain way because you feel you'd be emasculated if you didn't is a very troubling way to go about helping people.
I've saved my loved ones from death a couple of times (men, women, dog) and I can only hope that they love me enough back to do the same. And they have.


Quotebecause it's otherwise a convenient shorthand
Not really, it just tells me that you're judging another person because your argument ran out of steam.

Numbers

Anyone wanna bet on how many more days this thread lasts before it gets locked?
I have no mouth, and I must scream.

Lambonius

Quote from: 929572 on June 12, 2013, 05:47:32 PM
Anyone wanna bet on how many more days this thread lasts before it gets locked?

Quiet, you!  It's just starting to get good!  haha

KatieHal

Quote from: MikPal on June 12, 2013, 04:50:46 PM
Quotebecause it's otherwise a convenient shorthand
Not really, it just tells me that you're judging another person because your argument ran out of steam.

This conclusion does not make sense to me. How does it being handy to have terms that people both know the meaning/definition of so you can use those instead of going into a lengthier description means mean this? A shorthand phrase here is the same as, for example, stating up front in a contract that rather than stating a name or company name every time you need to, the general term "Client" or "Contractor" or "Payee" will be used in its stead. It's a phrase you can use that both/all parties understand the intended meaning of.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

Quote from: KatieHal on June 12, 2013, 08:19:39 PM
Quote from: MikPal on June 12, 2013, 04:50:46 PM
Quotebecause it's otherwise a convenient shorthand
Not really, it just tells me that you're judging another person because your argument ran out of steam.

This conclusion does not make sense to me. How does it being handy to have terms that people both know the meaning/definition of so you can use those instead of going into a lengthier description means mean this? A shorthand phrase here is the same as, for example, stating up front in a contract that rather than stating a name or company name every time you need to, the general term "Client" or "Contractor" or "Payee" will be used in its stead. It's a phrase you can use that both/all parties understand the intended meaning of.

Eh...I don't know, Katie.  Anytime you throw down a shorthand phrase with the intent of shutting down argument, it's basically the same as saying "I know you are but what am I?" over and over and over again.  ;)

KatieHal

The full sentence I wrote about this, which was only partially quoted here, was:

Quote from: KatieHal on June 11, 2013, 02:09:02 PM
Yeah, the phrase can sound very aggressive and off-putting. Unfortunate, because it's otherwise a convenient shorthand. And yeah, at least when I use it, I don't mean it in the "you know nothing [Jon Snow]!" kind of way. More that, hey, this isn't the way you experience the world--don't think you know more about it than the person or people who DO experience it that way.

In other words: that is specifically NOT the way in which I meant that phrase, and also the aspect of it that prevents it from being said convenient shorthand.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Neonivek

This site really hates me once my posts get really long.

Quotelet's say: hidden narratives

Honesty I am of the belief that an author's work should stand on its own separate from the author who wrote it. All this channeling the author to see the "hidden narrative" ends up just misrepresenting the story anyhow that often takes these notions and turns them into a good story.

Lovecraft for example is very famously anti-Semitic (Mind you the explanations of such makes him seem like he had a genuine mental problem) and actually used these elements in his writing to a very good degree. Yet I wouldn't go as far as to say his work is anti-Semitic even though he used his hatred towards the Jews as direct inspiration.

Quotewhen those ideas are powerful enough, they also shape the ideas of others. Like a circle: Society -> Writer -> Society -> Writer etc. And the unintended ideas can be even more powerful than the inteded. Which is also why I think it's so important to point out that discrimination isn't simply an ill intent

Only 3 of the 4 racisms are ill intent anyhow. But here is the thing. There is no discrimination here, these are characters within a narrative and are treated as such.

People will always pick up on certain ideas, but you cannot dictate onto a medium just because people have taken narrative fiction too far.

Quote. The actual problems begins when we can't talk enough about where those things come from and how we can get rid of them, because we have to waste so much time with discussing if they even exist

The problem to me starts when certain aspects of "ism" becomes acceptable or considered normal.

QuoteSo, watched FemFreq. Amazing. False dichotomies, appeals to ignorance, extremely poor research that could be done with an hour surfing in TVTropes.org

Yeah... It is pretty bad and the worst part is that it didn't need to be so terrible.

QuoteSo, why did people give money to this prejudiced person again?

If you have been in conversations with people who agree with her, there is a pattern.

Mostly they fill in all the gaps and any inconsistency they explain away. For example I can see what Anita means most of the time, but that is in no way accredited to Anita herself.

In fact there are even fans who know how troubled her videos are but who go "Well she is right, even if her arguments are wrong".

Quoteplenty of theories that would be welcome in any conspiracy theorists closet and worst of all

Well to admit she did completely misrepresent what happened to Dinosaur planet. A game that was changed to Starfox Adventures for a reason that had nothing to do with a girl being in Dinosaur planet.

darthkiwi

#376
QuoteLovecraft for example is very famously anti-Semitic (Mind you the explanations of such makes him seem like he had a genuine mental problem) and actually used these elements in his writing to a very good degree. Yet I wouldn't go as far as to say his work is anti-Semitic even though he used his hatred towards the Jews as direct inspiration.

No, you misunderstand the problem. We're talking about Lovecraft's antisemitic tendencies openly, which is good because we can now read Lovecraft and think "Hey, this is kind of racist BUT it still has things I like about it."

The problem is, how many people read Lovecraft, or other writers, and DON'T notice the racist undertones? When you're aware of these undertones they lose their power to influence you. (Mostly.) But if you don't notice them - if you get swept up in the story as we all want to be and you just accept the fact that the "primitive", "degenerate" "savages" are all Jews or black people or indigenous people BECAUSE YOU'RE ENJOYING THE STORY - then you'll internalise all the stuff he *implicitly* says about them. This isn't the best example because our views on race have changed a lot, but imagine you're someone from the 1930s. You're racist, sexist and believe whites are superior, because almost every white person believed these things back then, and I want to put you in the mind of the oppressive, culturally dominant group. And next time you see a Jew, you'll think "Oh, it's a Jew, like in that story I read." You won't just blindly assume this person is going to go and do a horrific Lovecraftian ritual, but you probably WILL think that they are secretive and have an inferior culture. Not because you've read Lovecraft and agree with him, but because you've read Lovecraft *and you never stopped to think about how he portrayed Jews*.

This is made worse, of course, by the fact that hypothetical 1930s-you is surrounded by a racist culture, but in this scenario Lovecraft's stories are only one small part of that culture, which is continually reinforcing itself. Which isn't to say they aren't also brilliant, spine-chilling, world-altering horror stories that can be enjoyed in their own right - of course they are. But we also need to look at the stuff they're telling us without us realising, by *not* drawing attention to it.

These tropes have power *because* nobody notices them, and *because* nobody *wants* to notice them. People's cultural values are changed by them *because they have an unconscious effect*, and *because people don't think they're important*. All of these posts people are making that say "Let's just enjoy the story"? That's the very process that we're discussing, in action! Right there!

QuoteThe problem to me starts when certain aspects of "ism" becomes acceptable or considered normal.

No no no, again you're missing the point. Yes, sexism and racism and all of those "isms" are bad. But do you think the slavers in the 18th century had a word for when they beat their slaves for fun? No - to them that wasn't "racism", that was *normal*, because to them, black people weren't people. The same goes for a lot of rape culture - women are seen as objects or property or, at the very least, men see it as their right to have sex regardless of whether the woman gives consent. To us that would be "sexism" but to these men that's just normal, because to them the idea of a woman having rights over her own body is absurd.
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

Deloria

Okay, let's just address how problematic it is labeling anyone writing in the 1920s as an anti-Semite, when it's pretty well established that this was, in fact, a global phenomenon. What you should be doing instead, is labeling them a product of their culture and environment.

Which brings me to my next point: the "point" of analysing the art and media we consume is that we don't just consume them. We are changed or moved by them and their depictions. They make us think differently. They don't exist in a vacuum that we then leave to get on with our real lives once we've finished consuming them. To find examples of this, we only need to wait for something to become a meme or for a certain "type" to become fashionable. If lots of people start thinking or acting a certain way because they're mimicking art, then we are perpetuating a culture. We should analyse that culture very carefully to figure out what exactly we're perpetuating, with all its subtext and potential problems, and then decide whether perpetuating it is a good thing.

When you produce a piece of media that is designed for consumption, you also have the converse obligation: People will read various things into it, perhaps not the things you intended, and those things will shape society too, especially if the ideas are popular and seem to mirror or validate what cultural stereotypes there already are. Valuable ideas may also be discounted or regarded as worthless because of the cultural context they exist in.

By considering the cultural context that something exists in, we remove our bias (and to an extent the author's bias) from that and can just consider the ideas by themselves and decide whether they have value or not.

Finally, rape culture *is* a problem. Male entitlement *can be* a problem. Society *is* problematic. What Anita's doing may not always be applicable (not having played many of the games, I don't know), but she's pointing out these tropes and making people who watch the video think about them, even if she's not applying it to a broader cultural context - but then, all you would have to do to know that these problems do exist is to read. ;)


Also: Tomatensaft, you got me posting again because you seemed clever, so thank you. It had to be someone who liked Wagner. :) *is going to all the Ring proms in London in July* :D
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

GrahamRocks!

Well said, my Queene! and you too Tomatensaft. *ducks away*

Neonivek

Quotebut she's pointing out these tropes and making people who watch the video think about them, even if she's not applying it to a broader cultural context - but then, all you would have to do to know that these problems do exist is to read

Yet still, they need more then just to be mentioned. You also have to accept that there is a problem and for many of these there needed to be some sort of explanation of any sort.

Saying something is proliferated is fine but you still have to explain why its proliferation is a negative and explain why some of these specific examples are negative.

QuoteThe problem is, how many people read Lovecraft, or other writers, and DON'T notice the racist undertones?

That isn't a problem at all, his books are not about racism and do not try to justify racism (to my knowledge). In fact as long as you are completely unaware of his inspiration it is completely and utterly a non-factor.

All it does as far as racism is concerned is describe the "otherness" of a creature in a style that only appears in some of his works.

There is absolutely no furthering of racism, proliferation of racist attitudes, or even a hint of racism UNLESS you know some of these exact details and actually look really deep into some of the lines and even then these lines wouldn't be racist anyhow.

In other words... The problem is only if you read too much into it.

QuoteThese tropes have power *because* nobody notices them

So in the end, THIS trope has no power if no one notices it.

QuotePeople's cultural values are changed by them *because they have an unconscious effect*, and *because people don't think they're important*.

Yet you yourself says it ultimately doesn't matter because as long as you point it out, it has no effect. So why care?